10-18-2002, 11:13 PM | #21 |
Elven Warrior
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See, I don't think of Melkor as evil, really. Iluvatar gave him free choice and I don't think he chose bad as much as different. I know it's been a while since I read the Sil, but didn't he just want to introduce his own theme to the Music? It wasn't entirely what you could call his fault that it created dischords - have you ever tried improvising in an orchestra!?!
Lanelf.
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10-21-2002, 12:49 AM | #22 |
Elf Lord
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So you do not believe in evil?
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10-21-2002, 04:19 AM | #23 | |
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10-21-2002, 12:32 PM | #24 |
Elf Lord
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Ahhh, could you please rephrase your question? I don't quite get what you're asking.
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10-21-2002, 06:15 PM | #25 | |
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Lanelf.
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Hey, I'm back! *resounding silence* You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster |
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10-21-2002, 06:32 PM | #26 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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10-21-2002, 07:05 PM | #27 |
Elf Lord
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Lanelf, what is your definition of evil?
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10-21-2002, 07:50 PM | #28 | ||
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And SGH, I agree with you, it was not just an artistic urge that made Melkor try to change the Music. And to answer my rephrasing of Artanis' question (whether or not she meant it!), C. S. Lewis, in his book "The Problem of Pain", deals with the whole free will issue and many of its ramifications. Some quick quotes from a section where he is talking about the necessity of having a fixed environment in order for people to express their free will, and the problems that arise from evil motives : Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-21-2002, 11:33 PM | #29 |
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perhaps eru was a humerous god and enjoyed watching what would transpire in middle earth with indifference. eru was simply watching tv and the sitcom was arda.
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10-22-2002, 01:35 AM | #30 |
Elf Lord
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I agree, RÃ*an. I don't think that there is any way that you can make someone not able to do evil but still having free choice, unless it is their very nature to not want to do evil. If doing good was what they wanted to do in the start, then that would conquer evil. They had the ability to do it, but they simply didn't want to. This plainly is the ideal, for Earth or Middle Earth. Unattainable in Earth unless you believe in Christ, but that's a matter of religion.
However, they do have free will, so even if it is their nature to do good, they have the ability to do evil if they wish to. Melkor was powerful, and he had a great deal of strength and wisdom. His nature in the beginning was probably the same as that of the other Valar, but unlike them, he wasn't content, and wanted more. He wanted something of his own, and so commited his first sins, arrogance and envy. Those led away from his nature and he chose the choices that weren't natural to him, but led to his darker sins, and to his final, biting and hating malice. God/Eru can make something pure and beautiful and noble, but by giving it free choice, it has the ability to go wrong if it sets its mind to selfishness. |
10-22-2002, 03:26 AM | #31 | |||
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The question is, as someone put it, what is this free will? Are the choices pre-determined by Eru as created by Him? Or are they not, but known to Eru in advance? Or are they neither pre-determined nor known, but merely choices subject to Eru's 'corrections'? My impression is Eru didn't know in advance every event in Arda. Some examples: Aule's decision to create the Dwarves. The downfall of Men. The rebellion of the Numenoreans. In these cases Eru was forced, as I see it, to take direct action onto the world.
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10-22-2002, 03:37 AM | #32 | |
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10-22-2002, 12:23 PM | #33 |
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Here is my thesis:
1. foreknowledge = predestination 2. predestination and free choice do not contradict each other. 3. A universe which contains evil does not mean the Creator of said universe is evil, nor does it make him guilty. I'll start with number 3 first: What Iluvatar brings into being is a moral universe with free creatures. His universe has the potential for evil, but that evil does not spring from him. In a moral universe, good cannot exist without evil and vise versa. There must be the ugliness of evil to appreciate the beauty of the good. Therefore even evil has its purpose. Now, the second one: All of history was pre-determined within the music of the Ainur. Was it not? I don't think the idea of destiny can be denied within Tolkien's universe. And yet, all of that history unfolds as free creature's make uncoerced decisions. Does it not? Do we see Iluvatar coercing any actions? No. And the outcomes are determined as much by the free decisions of the creatures as they are by the music of the Ainur. The point is, both are true. The fact that Melkor and others freely choose evil is proven by the fact that they are held responsible and punished for their actions. If their choice is not really theirs, they cannot be held responsible for it. And now the first: If Iluvatar knows the outcome from the beginning and yet allows it, has he not then predestined that outcome? He could have changed it, but he chose not to. One might suppose that Iluvatar had an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities, histories, outcomes at his disposal. He freely chose the one he chose. He allowed the free choices of the Ainur in the music. He knew what part each would play. He allowed them to do so for his own purpose. Thus his foreknowledge IS predestination. I know this was too long. Forgive me. |
10-22-2002, 12:30 PM | #34 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Well said Tar-Palantir.
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10-22-2002, 12:31 PM | #35 | |||
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Welcome, Tar-Palantir, since by your post count you seem to be a newbie And I don't think your post was too long, you should see some of mine! (Right, SGH?)
I really like what you expressed, but I would just slightly reword one part - where you said Quote:
I like how you worded these two ideas: Quote:
Quote:
(and that's my secret for long posts - quote other people's posts a lot! ) (not that post length matters, but post count! Entmoot joke! m-u-s-t- g-e-t t-o 60,000 t-o c-a-t-c-h S-G-H (heehee) )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-22-2002 at 12:37 PM. |
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10-22-2002, 12:36 PM | #36 | |
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10-22-2002, 12:39 PM | #37 |
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(SGH, check my edited post on the bottom part - can't you pleeezzee add a few posts to my count? Aw, comeon, just 50,000 or so )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-22-2002, 12:44 PM | #38 | |
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10-22-2002, 01:55 PM | #39 |
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I know, I just think it's funny. The first time I saw that, I really did a double-take.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-22-2002, 04:20 PM | #40 |
Elf Lord
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Welcome, Tar Palantir! Great to have you here!
I actually think that pre-destination is disproved simply by the fact that evil exists, unless you assume that Eru has evil a part of his personality. Because the creatures that he created do evil, sometimes, and if he is a good and perfect God, but one who has pre-destined everyone's lives, then he wouldn't include evil in them unless it was a part of his personality. Free will is what defeats pre-destination. He didn't want a universe of robots; what a bore that would be to sing into being, and what a boring song! Because he is the creator, he knows what choices people will make this this new gift he has given them: free will. But that is simply foreknowledge. If you're name is Mike, and you're a human on the planet Earth. Your brother, John, tells you that he is going to be doing a burglary on the bank in the city where you live, and you have two choices. You can turn him in to the police, or you can let him do what he wants. You have foreknowledge of what he's going to do, but that doesn't effect what he does, or what your choices are. It doesn't mean that you made him rob the bank; you aren't in control of what his free will has made him decide to do. This puts you in Eru's position. Only Eru knows all the outcomes, for everything. He might stretch his hand into circumstances and what happens and do what he pleases to bring about his final plan. Now let's say you're John, not Mike. You have two choices, rob the bank, or don't rob the bank. It's up to you what you do. You decide to rob the bank, and tell Mike about it. YOUR decision is made, and Mike (Eru), who can see all ends, has his own decisions to make based upon what he knows to be right. Mike isn't making you rob the bank, simply because he knows you're going to do it. Oh, and Tar Palantir, I disagree with you about evil being necessary to have good. You can have good without evil, but simply not knowing evil doesn't mean you can't be completely happy doing and knowing goodness. I'm thinking of Adam and Eve when I say this. But the knowledge of evil is probably necessary for you to have the knowledge of grace. |
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