03-18-2005, 06:35 PM | #21 |
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Administrative Note- This thread along with the "Creationism" thread is now open. They are now titled accordingly and open for discussion. All members are welcome and incouraged to post. Please remember that not everyone shares your views and opinions, so we ask that you debate responsibly, and stay on topic. Discussion of Creationism and Evolution will be discussed in their designated threads and will not enter the others.
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03-20-2005, 02:00 PM | #22 |
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I found a very informative website on just about everything one could think of in a debate about evolution vs. creationism:
The Evolution Pages ^ Very good link! Creationists who are interested in truth (RÃ*an! ) and others too will find this an interesting and enlightening read. I especially recommend the link "Evidence for Evolution" since not only is all kinds of evidence mentioned (many proofs have already been discussed at this board I think) but it is also explained why a particular part of evidence is evidence. The website also has a big section on creationism that I haven't had time to look at yet.
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03-21-2005, 03:21 PM | #23 |
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Thanks, Jonathan! I'll go look at it. I think it's a fascinating subject.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-21-2005, 03:28 PM | #24 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*takes a brief look at the link*
wow, wow, wow! Tons of good stuff to discuss in the evolution section! This will take awhile. And I might say I looked at the creationist half and found a mistake in about 10 seconds I don't have time to discuss the link now, but I think it's a good jump-off place, and I'll just join in wherever you guys want to start. But Jon, in the meantime, would you go over to the creationism thread and take a look at my post on the background and foundations of the scientific method? I'd like your opinions.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-21-2005 at 03:50 PM. Reason: cleared up something that wasn't clear |
03-21-2005, 03:31 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
BTW - I'm not surprised you have found something on the creationist part you didn't like.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-21-2005 at 03:32 PM. |
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03-21-2005, 03:49 PM | #26 |
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I just realized my post was unclear - the "Tons of good stuff to discuss!" was referring to the evolution info, which I had spent some time reading, while only glancing at the creationist side, since Jonathan had mentioned it. I'll go edit my post.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-28-2005, 06:44 PM | #27 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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JD just posted this on the creationism thread:
Quote:
IMO, altho parts of the theory of evolution are open to being changed when the facts don't fit (as in the case of pangenes and gradualism), still, the basic premise is NOT open to being changed, and I think that is very important to realize. The basic underlying premise of evolution is that one-celled-prototypes developed into all life as we now see it over billions of years and thru naturalistic processes such as natural selection and beneficial mutation. And altho pangenes have been tossed out because of facts, and gradualism has been tossed out because of facts, the underlying premise has NOT been tossed out. And this is the same way creationism operates, IMO. Both models have underlying premises that will not be tossed out; both have theoretical parts that CAN be tossed out as facts prove them wrong. Will expound later; dishes are calling!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-28-2005, 06:51 PM | #28 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-28-2005, 06:55 PM | #29 |
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hmmm, nice quote jd,
rian, it seems to, erm, contradict all of your arguments... |
03-28-2005, 09:19 PM | #30 |
Elf Lord
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You know what, Last Child? If we had revised our scriptures a few centuries ago to "fit the known facts," our Bible would be utterly messed up by now. Instead, consistently, when Christians believe what the Bible says in spite of what science says, science has ended up changing. Often that change comes in ways that better fit what the Bible says. I can cite instances. The break-up of the continents, for example. The person who proposed that theory was persecuted by scientists because his theory was "too Christian." The dinosaurs also, in my opinion, are clearly pointed toward in the scripture that says reptiles used to stand upright rather then crawl on their bellies. Historical data keeps fitting the Old Testament narrative. Assyrian accounts correlate splendidly with Israelite accounts from scripture, and various archaeological findings have consistently backed up specifics of what the Old Testament says existed. The Hittites, for example. There was no record that they existed aside from scripture, and were cited by many as a primary evidence of the Bible's faultiness. Now other things have turned up that show clearly that the Hittites did exist. Other facts of science too keep coming up that add more and more validity to what the scripture says. Yes, sometimes Christians have taken things on faith in the face of science and in the face of many other esteemed branches of man's learning. These barriers have fallen apart in the past, and they will fall apart in the future.
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03-28-2005, 09:24 PM | #31 | |
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Quote:
Please also note - this is a scientific thread only - not a religious thread. Please back up your statements with scientific fact - not biblical beliefs. BTW - Lief - just because something is written and corresponds to historical events - does NOT mean that you can base a science on it. It was thought for a long time that Homer's Odessey was completely fictional. Now many of the places have been found, along with Troy and the is even evidence that the battles were true. Does that mean we should believe that the Sirens and Cyclops were also true and that Zeus and all the gods were also true? JUst because there is correlation with historical events - doesn't make it 100% accurate. Another example is that right now I'm reading The Princeton Murders. All the places are accurate - streets, parks, restaurants, coffee houses, buildings, - but the story is completely fictional. In a thousand years - if people find this book - they may actually think that these murders were real because all the places are real.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-28-2005 at 09:30 PM. |
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03-29-2005, 12:11 AM | #32 | |
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-29-2005, 12:37 AM | #33 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-29-2005, 01:24 AM | #34 |
Elf Lord
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I'll have to watch one of my dinosaur videos again. I remember hearing about the birds taking over the skies from the dinosaurs, pushing some of the larger dinosaur fliers toward extinction. I don't recall hearing anything about their evolving into birds except from one different video, which had a separate section for each of the primary possible theories, one being the astroid collision and one being evolution to birds.
I'll have to research on this one again, I expect. I just don't remember hearing anything about the two theories being one.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-29-2005, 01:31 AM | #35 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-29-2005, 02:02 AM | #36 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I know that comparisons between bird and dinosaur bone structures have been made, and they show the two types of creatures to have strong resemblences. I'm not sure what evidence there is though that says the birds which were pushing the winged dinosaurs to extinction actually had been dinosaurs themselves, though. Birds have been around for about as long as the dinosaurs have. Archaeoptrix (forgive the spelling, which no doubt is bad ) existed 150 to 130 million years ago, and is classified as a bird. The dinosaurs ruled the land from 200 million years ago. I don't see why one should think that these new races of birds that were invading the pterosaur's Cretaceous shouldn't have stemmed from them. I don't know nearly enough about this theory of evolution of dinosaurs to birds. Do you have some good links you could offer me? I don't mean regarding the evidence. I know of the bone structure similarities. I want to know what the theory itself is.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-29-2005, 08:20 AM | #37 | |
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03-29-2005, 08:23 AM | #38 | |
The Intermittent One
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03-29-2005, 02:33 PM | #39 | |
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Lief, its important to keep in mind that the K-T event was not like one big off switch and that even if a vast majority of the individuals of a given species were killed because of it you wouldnt know it today because they may have completely recovered. Birds definitely took a hit from the event. But they recovered and became the only direct descendent of all dinosauria. Have a look at the following. It does a pretty good job of describing the effects:
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03-29-2005, 04:38 PM | #40 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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