10-26-2007, 04:51 PM | #21 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Defining what are essentially human concepts as illusionary is admitting that everyone, including myself, don't know what the truth is. Or, if there even are truths, for that matter. While one can argue the existance/non-existance of matter (i.e. a TV), it's quite a different matter where concepts are concerned. A TV probably exists whether or not there is a human in the universe to observe it. So, while it's appearance is relative to the observer (some might find it intriguing, while others dislike them), it's probably safe to assume that the TV has some characteristics that are independent of the observer, and maybe even "absolute" in some way. Concepts (good, evil, love, hate) are a whole 'nother ballgame. They don't exist without the observer present to define them. This is why they are illusionary. Though they are very powerful illusions.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-26-2007, 05:21 PM | #22 | ||
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-26-2007, 06:34 PM | #23 |
Elf Lady
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I've always been taught that there is good on the one hand and evil on the other. There is no definition of either one, which is kind of silly if they are both on opposite sides, because to have opposite sides, you'd expect to have a nice line and a balance somewhere.
It keeps surprising me how many people keep telling me there are these opposites without being able to tell me about the line. Personally I believe in (I think it was Aristoteles, but I might be very wrong... I keep mixing them up) there not being pure evil, but only missteps on the path to the right/good/proper/whatever. It is usually easier to see the evil in good things (like for example, the result was good, but the intention was bad, or if it had gone this way it would have been better) than it is to see the good things in something we perceive to be evil. Sometimes, finding the good in things requires effort and somehow some people seem unwilling to make that effort (these days). But talking about philosophy, how do you feel about Utalitarianism? When we treated the subject in high school, a lot of my class mates took it to mean that you could do whatever you want and that you could "use" people and things for you own personal happiness. In my view, you can't be happy unless the people you care about are more or less happy, so that would lead to you, trying your best to make them happy. Based on this, on emight expect your nearest and dearest to feel the same about their nearest and dearest, so it would become an overlapping circle of people trying to make others happy because they want to be happy. Egoism with a happy ending
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10-26-2007, 07:28 PM | #24 | ||
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-26-2007, 07:46 PM | #25 | |
Elf Lord
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Nice post, Mari.
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The key concept is "utility", a measure of how much good there is in a particular situation to a particular person. So what a utilitarian would be concerned with would be maximising the utility for the maximum number of people in the world. For example, let's say a situation of perfect health and happiness is a utility of 100, and let's say being dead is zero. I could kill everyone in the world, nick all their stuff and be 100 on the scale, but there are billions of zeros in there so it would be of overall low utility. It would be better to have everyone alive but miserable. This kind of approach is actually used in health economics, to work out the the costs and benefits of a particular intervention. For example, hip replacements don't save anyone's life, but they greatly increase the utility attached to a person's life, because they can walk without pain! Being alive and in severe pain might well have a utility close to zero; the benefit is almost as much as if you'd saved their life. Both a strength and weakness of utilitarianism would be that you don't take into account how one person's happiness matters more to you than another's. As you point out, in reality, that is probably a major factor in why we function as a collectively (im)moral species. One might say that utilitarianism is both an improvement on reality (in that everyone's happiness gets the same weight) and an unrealistic model of it. Last edited by The Gaffer : 10-26-2007 at 07:50 PM. |
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10-26-2007, 09:21 PM | #26 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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The very dependence that the feeling of love has on my existence, your existence, and everyone else's, is what gives it such beauty. Basically, the very idea that it is not permanent, but depends upon our fostering to exist.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-26-2007, 09:26 PM | #27 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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The tough part is convincing everyone that this is true.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-28-2007, 09:33 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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SACAA, the only absolute that BJ acknowledges is that his perception of reality is the way it is. I honour your valiant attempt to reason with him. May the battle do you good. Gathering mercury in a sieve, perhaps, but there is that chance that you will benefit. BJ refuses. Experentia docet.
Noble Elf Lord, you see, I hope, on the other threads you have no doubt searched that BJ knows only one absolute ... that stated above. But do try to reason with him, it builds a recognition of logical errors. That is, of course, of no concern to BJ, since there are "no absolutes" except his.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-29-2007, 02:14 AM | #29 |
of the House of Fëanor
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phew, jesus Inked, take it easy on Brownjenkins already, willya? Your sarcasm comes across as mean-spirited. Do you mind? It bothers me to keep seeing him snarked by you. Why do you do that, Inked? So what if he believes in absolutes, or whatever, so? Why encourage snide jeering teasing of the man? It only makes you look shallow-spirited, sir. Very sad.
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10-29-2007, 05:47 AM | #30 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Do I need to remind people that personal attacks aren't allowed on the Entmoot? You all should know this by now. No more or I'll break out my editing tool.
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10-29-2007, 09:06 AM | #31 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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No worries!
An attack is only personal if you let it be. And an attack that has no validity does not bother me. I guess that it would be fair to argue that my perception of reality is absolute, to me. But I also accept the fact that Inked's perception is absolute to him, and Sis's to her, etc. Which is another way of saying that everything is relative. The real problem may be that the human-created concept of "absoluteness", applied to anything other than individual points of view, simply doesn't exist.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-29-2007, 09:35 AM | #32 | |||
Elf Lord
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I really can't imagine how difficult it would be, to see it so differently. But I see it this way because it accords with the evidence of my senses, not because it denies it.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-29-2007, 11:10 AM | #33 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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On the rest, love isn't my creation, it's our creation. I suppose you believe that love is created by something else (i.e. god), and we are merely vessels for it? At the heart, my beliefs, and joy in them, don't depend on everything being eternal. I'm more than happy with their temporary nature. To me, that makes them all the more precious and worth holding on to. But, in the end, whatever works for the individual is fine. I'm happy in my beliefs, and certainly not slitting my wrists, and you're happy in yours. And, if both ways work, all is good.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-29-2007, 12:13 PM | #34 |
Elf Lord
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Lotesse, Earniel, BJ, et alia,
I certainly intended no personal attack on BJ, merely the elucidation of his constantly absolute statement about relativity of standards, which I might note, he promptly affirmed. I note that he did not perceive it as a personal attack. Is it attacking someone to state their entrenched position and refer others to their posted views? Battling BJ is good training. That was a compliment. The evermorphing problem of no absolutes is certainly present in BJ's argumentation. BJ and I even occasionally agree, but only on Blue Moons in alternately-treated leap years evenly divisible by four with no remainder and no 29 February. See the "Dumbledore is Gay" thread. Lotesse, I'm the one who believes in absolutes. BJ believes in absolute relativity of standards. I wasn't being snarky but creatively expressive. However, I do apologize to you for having offended your sensibilities by appearing to have attacked BJ personally.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-29-2007 at 12:16 PM. |
10-29-2007, 12:49 PM | #35 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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There is good and there is evil.
I know it can be confusing at times to try and define good vs evil. I have come to a very simple discerning tool myself; which is motivated by love and which is motivated by fear.
Greed, envy, jealousy, insecurity...etc, are all motivated by fear. These emotions lead to genocide, wars, fights, hate etc. A good example of the consequence is, Quote:
Good to me equals love. Which conversely is associated with total contentment with one self, it always starts with loving oneself; it is the only way you can know how to love anyone else. love is good, good is god. If you are happy and in total contentment with everything, you will no fear for anything, you will be at peace; how could evil come from such a one. No fear no evil. I will say also when you do evil you know it is evil. When you stab someone in the back because you are jealous of them, you know you did evil. When you praise someone because you want not to give the praise to the one who rightly deserves it, that is evil. Those who donot know evil when they do it are the worst kind of lier, they lie to themselves. Which sets a chain reaction in your psychology, which leads to fear and insecurity because in your subconscious you know the truth, and that will destroy you.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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10-29-2007, 03:07 PM | #36 |
Elf Lady
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But doesn't that mean that everyone is to a greater or lesser extent evil? Everyone fears something, it's natural. You fear coming too near fire, because you are affraid it will hurt you. When I was affraid my friend would hurt my sisters feelings I pushed him away. Is wanting to protect my sister evil? My friend was hurt, but he got over it. My sister on the other hand is still talking about him and what he said to her. What I think I'm trying to say is that sometimes fear is healthy and natural and it can get to a point where you have to make choices out of fear something may happen.
I do agree with you though that a lot of our darker emotions and motivations are fueled by fear. Then a completely different thing: what is love? What is pure love? If there is pure love, that means there must be unpure love. Is unpure love still good? Can love be twisted? Some people claim to kill out of love and I even heard the saying of "hating out of love". How is that connected to love? The word love is sometimes used in such a loose way that one doesn't know the meaning of it anymore: I love orange roses, especially those with lovely red or yellow edges. I love growing my own lovable cute little plants and allthough some of them die on me, I try to give them my utmost loving care. too much love... ugh.
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
10-29-2007, 03:13 PM | #37 | |
Elf Lady
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Isn't prospective death a great motivator to live a life worth living and assist others in living a life worth living?
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
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10-29-2007, 04:57 PM | #38 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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"Absolute relativity of standards" doesn't really fly as a description of what I've said because there are no standards and, if there were, they'd only absolute in terms of the individual. So, my statements about relativity are not absolute at all in the way that you use the term (i.e. absolute throughout reality). Take a less-controversial topic like ice cream. The idea that "ice cream tastes good" is a concept, not a physical thing. From Inked's absolute point of view, if "ice cream tasting good" fell under it, ice cream tastes good because god made it taste good. And, anyone who claims that it does not taste good to them are simply disillusioned, or expressing a sin (of the dairy variety). From my point of view, the individual determines what does and doesn't taste good. If I think ice cream tastes good, it's an absolute to me since I can't love it's taste and hate it's taste at the same time. But, I understand that another person may not agree, and that is perfectly fine.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-29-2007, 07:16 PM | #39 | |
Elf Lord
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First of all, "Ice cream tastes good" would just be an inaccurate way to say something. The same is true of Mari's "love" examples. The more accurate thing to say would be, as you suggest, "I like ice cream." That correctly identifies the locus of the adjective, because 'taste', while a characteristic of ice cream, is largely defined by the observer. But "good", as in 'ice cream tastes good' is a measurement of sorts. Ice cream tastes good. It tastes better than old army socks, which taste bad. My point is that, in order to say "ice cream tastes good' instead of "ice cream tastes blue', or 'ice cream tastes Howard' we use a standard - 'goodness' which partakes of all "goodness". So, if listening to a fine symphony is 'good' and eating ice cream is 'good', they have something in common, and it isn't their butterfat content. Swapping around the common and the ideal usages of 'good' in order to make sport of people who believe in God (which most who do capitalize) doesn't make this discussion easier to follow, imo.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-29-2007, 07:38 PM | #40 | |||
of the House of Fëanor
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Therefore, I felt I had to say something, Inked, so you could be made aware that your super-sarcastic style of posting about/to your opponents around here so often just screams nastiness, even if you, as you say, don't ever actually intend to be nasty, supercilious, or deliberately unkind. It sounds like you do, you know? The way you snap your sarcasm out at people, me not least of all over the years, it sounds (or, reads) very much like you intend to belittle and mock. I mean, just so you know.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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