09-30-2001, 11:19 PM | #21 |
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I think you're confusing Ea and Arda. Ea is the universe and is far, far older than Arda, which encompasses Middle-earth. Arda began as a single world, but eventually the Valar created the Sun, the Moon, and Venus, and Iluvatar divided Aman from Middle-earth, making Middle-earth into the round and inescapable Earth where we now dwell.
Tom was an aborigine of Middle-earth, possibly of Arda. His memory of Melkor coming from Outside is probably of Melkor's return to Arda after the Valar had settled on Almaren. Tom should have been alive by then. I don't believe it was his purpose to guard trees. I think he was there to help the Children in ways the Valar could not be expected to. He was older and wiser than Elves, Dwarves, and Men, but he probably had no direct, personal knowledge of Iluvatar or what lay beyond Arda. So he was in a way like an elder sibling, but not so far beyond the Children in experience that he represented a true danger to them (as Melkor and Sauron did). |
10-01-2001, 06:20 PM | #22 |
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Somewhy Michael I think you've misunderstood me. I understand about Ea and Arda.
At first I thought the bit about him remembering the Dark Lord coming from Outside was Melkor's return as well, but I realized it could not have been. Of course Tom was around when that happened, but I suggest his beginning was further back than that. He was Eldest in Time, Time began with Ea, he was thus the first spirit in Ea, before the Ainur. Which was, of course, long before Melkor's return. Tom's comment about the Dark Lord coming from Outside was, then, speaking about the Dark Lord's first coming (into Ea from the Void, as opposed to what you seem to think: into Arda from the spaces around it within Ea). Why you think he had no knowledge of what was beyond Arda then I don't know.
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10-01-2001, 06:48 PM | #23 |
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Where is it written that Tom is eldest in time?
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10-01-2001, 07:16 PM | #24 | |
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The Tolkien Letters, #153 (the one to Peter Hastings, the one who thought 'He is' meant Tom was God).
Quote:
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10-01-2001, 09:01 PM | #25 | |||||
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You have misunderstood the letter. Tolkien is not saying that Tom is eldest in time. He is showing why Tom cannot be what Mr. Hastings has mistaken Tom for (God). In the preamble to the letter, Humphrey Carpenter writes: "...He also cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God...."
Tolkien's full response to the Bombadil question (is he or isn't he God) begins with: Quote:
In a footnote to the letter, Tolkien writes the following: Quote:
And Tolkien also makes it clear that Tom's knowledge is quite limited. So there is no basis for inferring that Tom's knowledge extended to matters beyond Arda, or even beyond Middle-earth. He claimed to have little knowledge of matters out east, for example. Regarding Tom's reference to Morgoth's return, Christopher Tolkien writes this in The Return of the Shadow: Quote:
Quote:
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After LoTR, Tolkien returned to The Silmarillion and he then introduced the story of the first war between Melkor and the Valar, of Tulkas' late arrival and key role in defeating Melkor, and of the Valar's settling on the isle of Almaren and the creation of the Two Lamps (which Melkor returned to destroy). Either we must conclude that Bombadil's origin retroactively predates the Valar's settlement on Almaren, or else Tom simply doesn't remember anything from before the destruction of the Two Lamps. Since there were already plants and animals in Middle-earth at the time the Two Lamps were destroyed, it is reasonable to infer that Tom's words would be retrofitted to the earlier period. That is, Tolkien should have implied that Bombadil's beginning lay soon after Valian Year 1500, when the Valar drove Melkor out of Arda and began to prepare it for the plants and animals. Bombadil would have awoken in that early time (or in some way came to self-awareness), which was the beginning of the land. He would therefore have seen the first raindrop and the first acorn, etc., etc. So, the earliest we can place him is still countless ages after the beginning of Time. Hence, Tom is not eldest in Time. He is eldest in Middle-earth. |
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10-01-2001, 09:19 PM | #26 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
Also I haven't really read much of The Return of the Shadow. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll have to remold my thoughts now .... so, out of curiousity, what's the prime weapon against the 'Tom was an Ainu' idea? 'Tom was in Ea before the Ainur came there' was pretty good, but it doesn't work now. People can't be convinced by logic, you know, one must have a quote or something. Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for pointing that out! Edited: I just figured out what the argument against the 'Tom was an Ainu' idea is. Just the opposite of what it was before, as it turns out: 'Tom began in Arda'.
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10-01-2001, 09:39 PM | #27 |
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You really put me to the test on this one. When I first read that citation you provided, I thought, "I missed the boat here." But then I recalled the "aborigine" citation, and it took me a while to find it. I looked at the Hastings letter again and noted the preamble.
I think there is a lot of justifiable confusion over Bombadil. Tolkien himself doesn't seem to be sure of what he really was. My theory is just like anyone else's theory: a guess, with its flaws and strengths. But you're probably right. We've most likely come up with the best counter-argument to the "Tom is a Maia/Vala/Ainu" theory (one which I long held to myself). |
10-10-2004, 04:13 PM | #28 | ||
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I have a few questions about the Maiar myself. (Originally it was just about Balrogs, but then I got reading all those Balrog threads...) Sorry if any of these have actually been answered elsewhere.
1. Did Glorfindel defeat Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs)? 2. Which Balrog did Gandalf defeat in Moria, or is that not important? 3. At the time of the War of the Ring, where were the other Balrogs? I was under the impression that there were several. (Or, are their whereabouts either irrelevant or unimportant?) 4. Are the Istari also Maia? 5. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry aren't Maia right? The last half of this thread made me wonder about that. Maybe this will spark some more interesting discussion.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-10-2004, 05:49 PM | #29 |
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I think Nolendil told me long time ago, that although it seems by Tolkien's descriptions that there are many Balrogs - like in the war at the end of the First Age - Tolkien changed his opinion and said (wrote) that there actually weren't many Balrogs at all.
I think that all the other Balrogs were slain in that war by the Valar forces. Yes, the Istari are all Maiar. Nobody really knows what Tom Bombadil is... some beleieve he's a Maia. Tehre are many threads about it in the LotR forums. Last edited by Radagast The Brown : 10-10-2004 at 06:31 PM. |
10-10-2004, 06:15 PM | #30 |
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I, myself, incline to Michael's argument that he was a guardian spirit, not a maia at all. I have never liked the arguments that Tom was a maia, much less a Vala. We see in the posts above that JRRT explicitly denied that he was Eru, a silly concept if you ask me, as if God would enter into His creation in a trivial manner such as that, predating the Incarnation.
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10-10-2004, 06:28 PM | #31 | |
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Quote:
As for Glorfindel and who he killed, his Balrog was unnamed. Ecthelion killed Gothmog in "The Fall of Gondolin", but we don't know if that episode would have continued through to a full rewrite of the story. After Tolkien scribbled a marginal note indicating there were probably no more than seven Balrogs, he didn't bother to go back and change anything. So, when Christopher Tolkien put together The Silmarillion, he didn't catch the passage at the end of the "Quenta Silmarillion" which implied that more than one Balrog may have escaped the War of Wrath. Most probably (but nonetheless unprovably) Tolkien intended, at some point, to limit the number of surviving Balrogs to one (the one Gandalf slew in Moria). And despite the fact that many people like my Bombadil theory, it remains nothing more than a theory. We don't know what Bombadil and Goldberry were. Tolkien apparently never wrote any definitive assertions about their natures. |
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10-11-2004, 02:31 AM | #32 | ||
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Thanks Michael, I always like reading your posts.
EDIT: Oops, I accidentally didn't see your post Radagast. Thanks! And I actually have no more questions now... I wish we could just delete posts, but there it is.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 10-11-2004 at 02:32 AM. |
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10-15-2004, 02:36 PM | #33 |
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What ecaxtely do you (Attalus) find different between a guardian spirit and a maia? I believe all guardian spirits are maiar, not that all maiar are guardian spirits.
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10-16-2004, 05:14 PM | #34 |
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This thread pops up just in time! I was considering to make a thread about the Maiar myself.
I have been wondering whether there would have been much Maiar left in Middle-earth. When the Valar retreated to Aman, there is at least mention of one Maia, Melian, that remained behind. I was wondering whether more would have do so too. I gather the list of Maiar mentioned in the Silmarillion was not exhaustive. So would some of those unnamed Maiar still reside in Middle-earth, even at the time of the War of the Ring? I'd like to hear people's thoughts and ideas on that.
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10-16-2004, 06:42 PM | #35 | |
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Quote:
Sauron Saruman Gandalf Radagast the Balrog of Moria |
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10-16-2004, 06:55 PM | #36 |
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I may have worded my question wrongly. I didn't reckon with the Istari because they were sent to Middle-earth with a mission and because they didn't remain in Middle-earth since their very arrival. Nor did I consider the Balrog. I was thinking more of the unmentioned Maiar, would any of those have remained in middle-earth while the Valar retreated to Aman? Would there still be Maiar, perhaps servants to Yavanna for example, still tending to forests or fields?
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10-16-2004, 10:04 PM | #37 | |
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Quote:
Tom and Goldberry don't qualfy, even if we all agree for the sake of discussion that they could be Maiar (because they are very obviously mentioned). Orome's huntsmen might have visited Middle-earth with him. But I think the Valar ordered a general withdrawal from Middle-earth when the Noldor were exiled. Ulmo maintained limited contact with the Eldar of Beleriand (and Tuor), but even he did not intervene much. I think the best window of opportunity for any Maiar to stay behind would be the beginning of the Second Age, when Eonwe remained in Middle-earth to tutor the Edain and to summon all the Elves to sail over Sea. But any leftover Maiar would not be part of the stories -- they aren't mentioned. It's really an unanswerable question. |
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10-16-2004, 11:46 PM | #38 |
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Regarding Bombadil & Goldberry, In the absense of definative info on their nature, I lean toward the simplist explainations that fits the know facts (seeming imortality, 'magical power', and a particular attachment to a area of land, and likely their before the elves). I would best guess them to be Maiar, who concerned with the creation of that part of ME, and after having expended much of the being into it, became attached to it, and decided to stay there. Bombadil in his bounds and Goldberry in the river, but later they bound to each other and share their areas. I find no need to create new categories of beings when an existing one will fit the know info well enough.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
10-17-2004, 05:38 AM | #39 | |
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Quote:
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10-17-2004, 10:40 AM | #40 | |
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