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10-05-2004, 04:18 PM | #21 | ||
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I agree RTB, and I also think it's because of the riddle, and the heritage of Isildur. The fact that Isildur was betrayed by the Ring wasn't really in the library records IIRC. Gandalf read between the lines and did other research, but this wouldn't have been obvious to someone else. Especially someone who didn't fully understand Sauron's true nature and power, and the sort of evil tools he employed (like the Ring).
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10-06-2004, 01:08 AM | #22 | ||||
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I still think that it was the Nazgul, Khamul in particular. Why Sauron had to send somebody all the way from Mordor, while his most trusted servants were dwelling in much shorter distance from the Dale and Lonely Mountain? If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery. Quote:
I think the Dwarves perception woun't be any better. Quote:
Nobody was brave enough to oppose the decision of the Elves. Only Boromir had the guts to stand up and voice his opinion, for which he gained in my eyes much higher respect then Aragorn.(But Aragorn has come a long way to deserve later an admiration too) So, in my POV the Council of Elrond was a staged show, where the major players was already picked up, it was only left to persuade them to take the predeterminate role.And to do so you had to aim on convincing everybody in the common danger, the danger of the total destruction of the M.E. Last edited by Olmer : 10-06-2004 at 09:08 AM. |
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10-06-2004, 08:48 AM | #23 | |||||||
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We can't be sure they were not used anyway (subtly, of course) - "Gilthoniel, a Elbereth" occured to Frodo and Sam at just the right moments. EDIT: About asking a Hobbit's or Dwarf's opinion, the Elves were really the only people in this case who knew what they were talking about. Elrond was actually there when Isildur took the Ring, what better first-hand knowledge could you ask for? In addition, he was extremely wise, his opinion would have been consulted anyway. In Frodo's place, I would have trusted Elrond's council. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-06-2004, 09:01 AM | #24 |
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The 3 had a wholly different "power and purpose" to the rest of the Rings [read: Tolkien's Letter to Milton Waldman in one of the editions to The Sil] so they would be quite useless in being using against Sauron.
It is enough to hide the knowledge of the 3 to those who didn't need to know. I think that not many "ordinary" elves would have been directly aware of the use of the 3 Rings, or if they did, they were not permitted to speak about it. This is similar to the ring possessed by the Dwarves of Moria: not many would have been aware of its existance and it would never have been openly talked about.
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10-06-2004, 09:07 AM | #25 |
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What has always interested me during the chapter is the "dream" that Boromir has, and its implications. For discussion:
1. From whom did the messages/dream come from? 2. Is there any coincidence that the dreams were first targeted at Faramir and that he received them often, and that Boromir only receieved it once? It remains my belief that whoever sent the messages wanted Faramir to go to Imladris.
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10-06-2004, 09:27 AM | #26 | |
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10-06-2004, 10:16 AM | #27 | |
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IMHO, the dreams were sent to the most receptive individual, not necessarily the one who was to carry out the task. In my understanding, once Boromir had the dream and (most likely) discussed it with his brother, they took counsel together and presented the data to Denethor. It is interesting that he received no dream, but may have been under the influence of Sauron to the extent he could not himself receive it. Nontheless, Denethor retained enough insight to pursue the message, though he had little faith in regards to it. It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals. Boromir was subsequently shown to indeed be most like his father, but ultimately overcame that willfullness and pride at great cost. "The ways of the gods are strange to men, and yet they are not strange." Orual, TILL WE HAVE FACES, CS Lewis.
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10-06-2004, 11:16 AM | #28 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-06-2004, 02:57 PM | #29 | ||
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IIRC, Faramir says to Frodo and Sam in Ithilien that he would have liked this quest, but Boromir insisted that he would go. I wonder how much of that was fate, and how much was the nature of the two brothers. Hm...
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-06-2004, 04:32 PM | #30 |
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But then maybe it would have been Faramir tempted by the Ring instead of Boromir.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-06-2004, 06:22 PM | #31 | |
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I see that others have chimed in on this one, but I agree with Olmer, I really think it was a Nazgul. Here's why: 1. The rider to Dain: a) arrives at night, in secret--since the 9 were not riding openly yet, though active b) he is unable to make his voice fair b1) he is said to have a fell voice c) his breath hissed like the hiss of snakes d) everyone who hears him shudders in fear--this all sounds very like a Nazgul to me. BUT.... 2. Would Sauron have entrusted discussion and information about the ring to antone else? Take the Mouth for example, a Black Numenorean full of ambition who has studied "sorcery"---not someone I would entrust with finding the Ring because he would likely be tempted to take it himself and try and master it. Whereas the Nazgul were slaves to the Ring and would feel no temptation. Granted the rider is only looking for news, not the thing itself, but it seems to me that even news at that stage of Sauron's game would have been dangerous. FB |
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10-07-2004, 07:11 AM | #32 | ||||
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This point is relevant to other parts of this chapter. That is why Boromir's idea was totally shot down. An attempt to use the Ring would be essentially delivering it to Sauron.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 10-07-2004 at 07:12 AM. |
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10-07-2004, 08:01 AM | #33 | |
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Boromir takes it upon himself to make the dangerous journey from Gondor to Rivendell. Faramir, in Window of the West", points out that he himself was due to go but Boromir insisted. Denethor was loathe to send Boromir but I don't think it was anything to do with looking in the palantir. Although the Valar may have sent the message (I wouldn't even want to guess which one, although I'd hazard a guess that Ulmo gave the vision of Boromir on Anduin to Faramir), it is clear, through History, that they have not always achieved their intentions (that's an understatement if ever there was one!). I believe therefore that it was always their intention to send Faramir.
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10-07-2004, 08:11 AM | #34 |
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an excellent summary, and a good range of views so far.
I have always thought that the council of elrond was rather a good chapter, although if you are not used to reading long sections of monologue at a time, it can be quite tiresome. The main part of this chapter, to me, is an introduction into the stories that shaped the future, including some not so distant pasts, eg gollum in mirkwood, gandalf at orthanc etc. |
10-07-2004, 03:13 PM | #35 | |||
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As for trusting the Mouth, how do we know he was as loyal as a Nazgul and wouldn't be tempted by the Ring? EVERYONE, even Gandalf and Galadriel, though loyal to the Free Peoples and the Valar are tempted by it, and resist the temptation. WOuld the Mouth have so resisted? Saruman didn't. Quote:
And the point of course isn't whether or not the Mouth COULD master the Ring so much as he would be tempted to do so...even Isildur attempted it. Quote:
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10-07-2004, 04:18 PM | #36 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 10-07-2004 at 04:20 PM. |
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10-07-2004, 05:29 PM | #37 | |
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But even if so, if he can master the Ring, his rewards would be greater, and that possibility surely would have occurred to him had he been the messenger and gone after the Ring....even more so had he gotten his hands on it. Even little Sam, the most loyal, good hearted individual in the story, has delusions of grandeur when he has the Ring, how can we expect a Black Numenorean who is a powerful socerer in his own right and is more cruel than any orc to have no temptation at all from the Ring, or that would he be loyal to Sauron no matter what when faced with the Ring? FB |
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10-08-2004, 03:11 AM | #38 |
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But he would not have been able to master it. He was still a man. The Ring was Sauron's creation and the Ring wanted to be on Sauron's hand again. Eventually it would have betrayed the Mouth to his death.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-08-2004, 08:54 AM | #39 | |
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10-08-2004, 06:34 PM | #40 | |||||||||
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Well, I was saying in there that in the vales of Anduin the Nazguls spent 50+ days, riding along the river. I was wondering why it took for them so much time, riding on strong and fast horses, while from the Gladden fields to the High Pass was just 10 days of the walking distance. Considering that from Gladden fields to Erebor is the distance 4 times longer, then an assumption that the Nazguls rode to Erebor fits in this 50+ days. Other than that, Forkbeard precisely described why the messenger "feels like Nazgul", and I think his arguments are very strong. Quote:
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I think, if it was ineed the Ring which was bringing a power, he would be able to withstand Sauron and to bring his people to the victory and glory. But it will be the deed of self-sacrament, because at the end his life-force will be succumbed to Sauron, turning him into another Wraith. Quote:
If somebody about to send me on the death-march, I would definately like to be taken not like a voiceless dummy, even if my opinion would be discounted. Quote:
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“I would ask you, my father, why it was that I, not he (Boromir) was in Ithilien… It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him ” (Faramir to Denethor. ). Quote:
Last edited by Olmer : 10-11-2004 at 03:01 PM. |
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