Gandalf...with an elven ring? - Page 2

Ñólendil · 12-11-2002, 09:22 PM

Quote:

wouldn't it be better to say the power that created the silmarils and the rings was similar-the sub-creative power of the elves, which flourished last in Eregion, a reflection of its birth in Aman.

No, I do not think so. I think the Elves were capable of sub-creation since their Awakening (and likewise for Dwarves, and Men). That a sub-creative power was demonstrated in the Silmarilli and the Elven Rings I do not doubt, but that power was also used in the making of Anglachel, or Orcrist.

Maedhros · 12-12-2002, 01:31 AM

Quote:

True, originally no specific connections are allocated to the Silmarils regarding certain domains. But as you also point out, their fates were bound with the earth, the sea and the heavens. And this is where they had ended up at the time Celebrimbor made the Three. Their places and functions had in other words been altered it would seem.

I have seen theories like this in other places, and I definitely see the connection. There is also this quote that I found.
From Unfinished Tales: Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

Quote:

But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor.

This is not a direct quote regarding the validity of the theory, but it sheds some light that Celebrimbor wanted to rival Fëanor, and maybe, just maybe he took the idea of Earth, Water and Fire from his grandpa.

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-12-2002, 10:40 AM

I know the Rings were Fire, Sky, and Water, but I thought the Silmarils were, too. Are they Earth, Sky, and Water?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-12-2002, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I know the Rings were Fire, Sky, and Water, but I thought the Silmarils were, too. Are they Earth, Sky, and Water?

No. The properties of the Silmarils were that they contained the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor, and were hallowed by the Vala Varda. The only thing relating to the elements of the earth, air, fire, water, is that each of the Silmarils ended up in one of those places. Earendil being placed in the sky by the Valar, with a Silmaril bound to his brow. Maglor casting a Silmaril into the sea. And lastly, Maedhros throwing himself into a fiery chasm with a Silmaril.

Although the Silmarils were not of the elements of earth as the Three Rings, Celebrimber I think was hoping to rival the creation of the Silmarils with the Rings, but I think he was trying to create a way to ward off the effects of time and that was the more important reason for their creation.

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-12-2002, 12:34 PM

Yeah, I knew they weren't the Silmaril of Fire, etc. I meant where they ended up.

Beleg Strongbow · 12-12-2002, 02:29 PM

hmmm. I wonder if the Three Rings could have been percieved as, somehow, a return of the Silmarils. They were both:

numerically similar (3)
related to the losing-places of the silmarils
constructed by one of the house of Feanor
concerned with postponing 'fading' (applies more to the Rings) and preserving elvish beauty in the world.

Very interesting.
And, whoever it was who said it: Galadriel wiser than Erenion Gil-Galad? I don't think so.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-12-2002, 02:40 PM

Quote:

And, whoever it was who said it: Galadriel wiser than Erenion Gil-Galad? I don't think so.

Well, I would say that they were both wise, but Galadriel more so, because she was nurtured in the Blessed Realm and lived in the light of the Two Trees. However, Finrod was the wisest of the Exiled Elves.

Lollypopgurl · 12-12-2002, 06:44 PM

Ok, when the rings were first made they were given to Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Cirdan, the dude that appears in the last chapter of LOTR.

Gil-galad gave Elrond his ring, and Cirdan gave Gandalf his. So Gandalf has an elven ring.

I thought it was kinda weird when I first read the book too, but I never thought much about it cause I was too busy getting confused over everything else.

Lollypopgurl · 12-12-2002, 06:45 PM

I never noticed that Beleg!

The rings are similar to the silmarils. They didn't get stolen by Sauron though.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-12-2002, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lollypopgurl
I never noticed that Beleg!

The rings are similar to the silmarils. They didn't get stolen by Sauron though.

The Silmarils were stolen by Morgoth.

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-12-2002, 10:49 PM

I don't think the Rings could really be the Silmarils returned. First off, isn't the star Earendil the light of the Silmaril in the Sky? Yet I believe it continues to shine brightly. And also, the Silmarils would not be affected by the One Ring; they were hallowed by Varda herself, Queen of the Valar, whereas the Ring was forged by Sauron, one of the Maiar.

Of course, I could be wrong, just stating my opinion.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-13-2002, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I don't think the Rings could really be the Silmarils returned. First off, isn't the star Earendil the light of the Silmaril in the Sky? Yet I believe it continues to shine brightly. And also, the Silmarils would not be affected by the One Ring; they were hallowed by Varda herself, Queen of the Valar, whereas the Ring was forged by Sauron, one of the Maiar.

Hmmmm. I thought I said that.

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-13-2002, 11:37 AM

Oh, did you? Sorry, didn't see that.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-13-2002, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Oh, did you? Sorry, didn't see that.

Just razzing ya.

Beleg Strongbow · 12-13-2002, 02:27 PM

I didn't mean that the Rings were literally Silmarils. I meant that they were intended to be similar.

Has anyone else noticed: Tolkien liked odd numbers, but not 5. Why not 5?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-13-2002, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
I didn't mean that the Rings were literally Silmarils. I meant that they were intended to be similar.

Has anyone else noticed: Tolkien liked odd numbers, but not 5. Why not 5?

It does seem strange, all the odd numbers doesn't it? I always thought it was coincodental, but maybe not. The Rings: 3, 7, 9, 1. The Nazgul: 9. The Fellowship: 9. The Silmarils: 3. The Palantiri: 7. You asked about the number five, well, the only time I can think of 5 being used is the Istari.

I know you didn't mean that the Rings were Silmarils, but there were sililarities. 3 Elven Rings, crafted by the Noldor of the House of Feanor. The Rings were of the elements of earth, and the Silmarils ended up there. They were both stolen by a great dark power, etc...

Falagar · 12-13-2002, 03:04 PM

And don't forget that Fëanor had 7 sons and that Elrond had three children.

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-13-2002, 04:27 PM

Actually, the Rings were never stolen. Sauron never touched them; that is why they were not corrupted.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-13-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Actually, the Rings were never stolen. Sauron never touched them; that is why they were not corrupted.

Right. I was refering to the 9 and 7.

12-12-2002, 10:40 AM	#23
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I know the Rings were Fire, Sky, and Water, but I thought the Silmarils were, too. Are they Earth, Sky, and Water? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-12-2002, 12:34 PM	#25
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yeah, I knew they weren't the Silmaril of Fire, etc. I meant where they ended up. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-12-2002, 02:29 PM	#26
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	hmmm. I wonder if the Three Rings could have been percieved as, somehow, a return of the Silmarils. They were both: numerically similar (3) related to the losing-places of the silmarils constructed by one of the house of Feanor concerned with postponing 'fading' (applies more to the Rings) and preserving elvish beauty in the world. Very interesting. And, whoever it was who said it: Galadriel wiser than Erenion Gil-Galad? I don't think so. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

12-12-2002, 06:44 PM	#28
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Ok, when the rings were first made they were given to Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Cirdan, the dude that appears in the last chapter of LOTR. Gil-galad gave Elrond his ring, and Cirdan gave Gandalf his. So Gandalf has an elven ring. I thought it was kinda weird when I first read the book too, but I never thought much about it cause I was too busy getting confused over everything else. __________________ a violinist...

12-12-2002, 06:45 PM	#29
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	I never noticed that Beleg! The rings are similar to the silmarils. They didn't get stolen by Sauron though. __________________ a violinist...

12-12-2002, 10:49 PM	#31
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I don't think the Rings could really be the Silmarils returned. First off, isn't the star Earendil the light of the Silmaril in the Sky? Yet I believe it continues to shine brightly. And also, the Silmarils would not be affected by the One Ring; they were hallowed by Varda herself, Queen of the Valar, whereas the Ring was forged by Sauron, one of the Maiar. Of course, I could be wrong, just stating my opinion. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-13-2002, 11:37 AM	#33
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Oh, did you? Sorry, didn't see that. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-13-2002, 02:27 PM	#35
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	I didn't mean that the Rings were literally Silmarils. I meant that they were intended to be similar. Has anyone else noticed: Tolkien liked odd numbers, but not 5. Why not 5? __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

12-13-2002, 03:04 PM	#37
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	And don't forget that Fëanor had 7 sons and that Elrond had three children. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-13-2002, 04:27 PM	#38
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Actually, the Rings were never stolen. Sauron never touched them; that is why they were not corrupted. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR	Wally	Lord of the Rings Movies	425	08-14-2016 08:43 AM
How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas	Gordis	Middle Earth	217	10-03-2013 03:43 PM
Ring's sentience and Ring detection	Gordis	Lord of the Rings Books	17	01-04-2008 09:37 AM
LOTR Discussion Project: Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor	Beren3000	LOTR Discussion Project	31	02-09-2006 02:46 AM
LotR Discussion Project: The Two Towers--Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider	mithrand1r	LOTR Discussion Project	14	10-25-2005 09:55 AM