Denethor, Faramir, Boromir

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Im not sure if this has been said before but as I understand it it Faramir looked more like his mother, and the memory and the death of Denethors wife troubled him greatly. Everytime he looked on Faramir he saw his wife, a wife no more. Also his "dislike" if we could call it that was fuled by looking into the Palantir, it didn't control him like saruman but it did things obviously to his head. Furthermore this all was fueled by Faramirs unlikeness to Denethor. He was gentler and kind of more noble. He was lerned and prefered books and learning and the lore of the elves. Gandalf was a friend of his and Denethor became uneasy with gandalf as the years went on. Further more... Faramirs few losses and defeats in battle fueled the dislike even more, and the death of his beloved Borimir(instead of Farimir), so i would say that when the two were first born he cared for them both equally.

[Haradrim]

So to sum up so far:
Denethors reasond for not liking Faramir:
1. Reminded him of his wife through looks
2. Friends with Gandalf
3. Palantir
4. His few victories and more losses
5. His almost more nobleness
6. Likes books a lot and is mor elearned
7. Gandalf doesnt really like Boromir
8. Boromir dies

Well thats a lot of reasons to dislike ones son. Feel free to add more reasons. use numbers so we can keep track of how many there are.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the main ones there are 2, 3 and 8 for had it been Faramir who had gone to Rivendell and died then the roles could be some what swapped.

[Haradrim]

Do you think Denethor would have grieved Faramir's death? Also Im not sure he would have died had Faramir gone. He probably could have held off the tug of the ring for much much much longer than Boromir. Cuz Boromir saw a weapon while Faramir knew the costs of the weapon. I think that maybe the hobbits wouldnt have been seperated from Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Faramir. But would they have found Gandalf. If not then who would have saved Rohan and if Rohan wasnt saved then Gondor wouldnt be saved. So maybe Boromir did die for something in the end.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree that Boromir died for something as Aragorn said to him that few had achieved such victory.

[Haradrim]

But what did he die for. What was Aragorn refering too. My crazy string of events, or for Merry and Pip or just for the Fellowship in general.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He escaped the powers of the Ring after trying to take it from Frodo.

[Haradrim]

but according to Aragorn he had some kind of honor when he died. He did save Merry and Pip but Aragorn gave him massvi eprops which I dont think he deserved. He only came back top his senses when Frodo ran away. SO he didnt make a choice. Instead he tried to save Merry and Pippen and failed. So what did he accomplish.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He regained his honour by trying to save Merry and Pippin instead of running off trying to find Frodo and the Ring again.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Olmer

In plain words good old Gandalf was implying that Boromir is a bastard, otherwise how Westernesse's blood of the father could run in one son and not in other.

No, they were both the sons of Finduilas. Gandalf is speaking not as a scientist, but as a wizard, talking of the mystical nobility of Numenor. Faramir had it strongly, Boromir less, no matter how great a warrior he was. Beregond speaks of how Faramir was both a loremaster and captain of men, implying, at least to me, that Boromir was not.

[Haradrim]

I think Gandalf meant that the spirit of the Numenor blood was stronger in Faramir than in Boromir. Because Faramir was also very wise.

[Thorin II]

Originally Posted by Attalus

No, they were both the sons of Finduilas. Gandalf is speaking not as a scientist, but as a wizard, talking of the mystical nobility of Numenor. Faramir had it strongly, Boromir less, no matter how great a warrior he was. Beregond speaks of how Faramir was both a loremaster and captain of men, implying, at least to me, that Boromir was not.

I think this is exactly right. It seems Boromir was a great captain of men, so I always took that to mean he wasn't much of a loremaster.

[Haradrim]

so great captains of men cant be lore masters. Look at Aragorn. That guy was the greatest captain of men ever. So while he wasnt I disagree with why you say you thought that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I would agree with the fact that Boromir wasn't a great loremaster but I agree with Haradrim that you can be even if you are a leader of men.

[Attalus]

*patiently* But, that was just the point. The speaker was Beregond, who didn't even know Aragorn at that point, and he was contrasting his chief, Faramir, with Boromir, "the one that is gone." You have to think in context. There are a dozen examples of great war captains who were loremasters too. Look at Elrond, for crying out loud. Look at Finrod!

[Haradrim]

Okay now I get it. thanks for clearing that up.

[BeardofPants]

Y'know, these things could be cleared up a LOT sooner if you guys did some more reading. The answers to most of these debates lie in the writings of Tolkien. If you can't be bothered doing to research, then I'm afraid you're going to have to remain ignorant of the answers to that which you seek.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

In plain words good old Gandalf was implying that Boromir is a bastard, otherwise how Westernesse's blood of the father could run in one son and not in other.

On the other hand, it could just be some genetics at work here.

Originally Posted by Haradrim

3. Palantir

We don't know just what Denethor saw in the PalantÃ*r, but I doubt he was seeing something that made him dislike Faramir.

Originally Posted by Haradrim

7. Gandalf doesnt really like Boromir

I'd like to see your proof for this, nothing I've read seems to imply that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

We don't know just what Denethor saw in the PalantÃ*r, but I doubt he was seeing something that made him dislike Faramir.

I think that Haradrim meant that the palantir twisted Denethors mind so he saw things in a different way to the way he used to.