12-06-2004, 11:15 AM | #21 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I have never read any more Terry Brooks books after The Sword of Shannara. He might at least put a couple of in-jokes in it to indicate that he was plaigarising Tolkien.
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12-06-2004, 01:35 PM | #22 | |||
avocatus diaboli
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Ah, good. So the thread was moved.
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And then I will go watch it with the quasi-Legolas-fangirls down the hallway and we'll see if I make it back to the Moot alive... Quote:
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12-06-2004, 02:50 PM | #23 | ||
the Shrike
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12-06-2004, 03:25 PM | #24 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I agree, BoP, and was going to post to that effect except I was being hurried. Shakespeare drew extensively on earlier sources, as JRRT himself noted in "On Fairy-Stories," to the effect that Hamlet is not the same as Aylmon's story in his Brut. He goes on to liken the creation of a fairy story, of which the LotR is inarguably one, to the making of soup: a bone from there, veggies from here and there, and stock from elsewhere, to make something entirely different from, but related to, these sources. I certainly have no quarrel with that, but outright piracy is something else, again.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
12-06-2004, 08:32 PM | #25 | |||
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12-06-2004, 08:48 PM | #26 | |
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However, there is recent fantasy that falls into this category of writing. (Writing with a purpose beyond just trying to tell a good story, and instead trying to sell an idealogy or analyze real, recent historical events. Yes, this is a highly disputable region of literature.) I'll see if I can take time away from school to go rumage up a list of what I think qualifies. A lot of this literature, in my opinion just plain sucks beacuse the stories suck. There are some, though, that although I dislike being sold to blatantly, are really great books. El...tell me, who exactly is it that has banned me from watching Lotr? (so I can hunt them down and force them to read horrible fanfics!!!) Last edited by Embladyne : 12-06-2004 at 08:52 PM. |
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12-07-2004, 12:14 AM | #27 | ||
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Isn't everything in the here and now modern? Maybe what was once considered modern should be called something else in such a case... Though I don't see how Tolkien could be considered "post-modern" in anycase. But since that was just a rant, on your part and mine, I'll let it go.
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12-07-2004, 12:32 AM | #28 | |
the Shrike
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12-07-2004, 12:46 AM | #29 | ||
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Postmodern art tries to deal with the tragedy in the world. Consiously. This is a great idea, but I don't think it should have precedence over story. (There is postmodern art I enjoy and appreciate, mainly music and film.) The answer to this kind of art, though, I dislike more. In it's attempt to make grand and great things that rebuild or replace what has been lost, it easily slides down the path of simplistic propaganda. All of this is my opinion on these art forms. My favorite way to decide whether or not I like a particular something, is still to try it out myself. El, thanks for calling me on that. I still don't think I've written very well what I mean. Quote:
Only that I like people to be subtle when they do sell. All work is obviously going to have some kind of ideological background, no matter who the artist is. My general statements allowed many things to fall through the cracks. And I don't intend to dis postmodern art, or any larger genre of art for that matter. What I am worried about is when people claim to speak for everyone about the direction in which art MUST go. Or claim that their art is the only REAL art around. (I'm not saying that postmodern art does this, just individual artists across the centuries.) That is a personal thing. Just like my dislike of one book, and rabid fascination with another. Since life is a highly individualized endeavour, so too should be the art a person creates. Thanx to you too, for forcing me to be clearer, I hope. Last edited by Embladyne : 12-07-2004 at 01:06 AM. |
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12-07-2004, 12:56 AM | #30 |
avocatus diaboli
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It doesn't matter.
It's all Off Topic anyway. How about this to try to drag us back On Topic: Why the word "copying"? Why are people sometimes so angry about the idea that someone is always trying to "copy" Tolkien? (This thread, for example ) I know there are a lot of people who think that Harry Potter is a cheap rip-off (I don't see it, personally). I haven't heard anyone get angry about Tolkien taking influence from Christianity or mythology? Why is it that when Tolkien's work clearly parallels theology or myths and legends, it is considered "influence" and "inspiration," yet someone who draws that same "inspiration" from Tolkien is immediately accused of copying?
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12-07-2004, 01:12 AM | #31 |
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Because religion is cool, man!
Really though, I do agree with you on the copying thing. I think we should consider those who "copy" Tolkien as my parents always told me to think about my younger siblings "copying" me. "It's a compliment!" Then again...copyright laws. Don't I wish I owned those to my lifestyle, when my parents gave me that line! But, I think that people maybe don't mind authors using religious stories, because those are stories of a culture, and collectively owned, while in our society, books are works of intellect, and....stuff.... and individually owned, and the author is deserving of credit because of their great accomplishments. Personally, if I ever wrote a novel, the dedication would be longer than the actually book because of all the people I would have to thank, and apologize for *almost* plagerizing. Last edited by Embladyne : 12-07-2004 at 01:15 AM. |
12-07-2004, 01:46 AM | #32 |
avocatus diaboli
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But what can truly be considered original?
Is there anything in Tolkien's work that does not closely resemble something seen before? Surely he put everything together somewhat differently than anything else... But so most people we've accused of plagiarising him... With the exception of Brooks, of course.
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12-07-2004, 11:06 AM | #33 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Certainly, I do not object to people using the age-old conventions of fantastic literature (some go back to Gilgamesh). What I dislike about The Sword of Shannara is that it blatantly copies the storyline of the LotR so much that every page causes me to think, "He's Legolas!" or something else. Obviously, this is a highly individual matter. David Eddings does much the same thing, but not in regard to Tolkien. The man actually copies himself.
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12-08-2004, 12:09 AM | #34 | |
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Tolkien Estate is making a lot of money on The Professor's work. And while this "goose" continue to produce golden eggs, it will be an army of well-payed lawyers which with an appliance of different interpretation of the law will help to squeeze out on the whole Tolkien's ideas as much money, as it can be possible. In mean time a lot of extraodinary written work, inspired by Tolkien, will be forewer lost for readers. Pity. |
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12-08-2004, 11:04 AM | #35 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Alas, Olmer is right. The quashing of the Fall of Gondolin book, I forget the title, proves once again that Christopher is not at all one with his father's ideal of inspiring otheres.
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12-11-2004, 03:16 PM | #36 |
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it does kind of stink that if Tolkien was living today we could have tons more LoTR books, but then again there would be almost no need for the Entmoot because all these questions would be answered
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12-12-2004, 02:05 AM | #37 | |
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12-12-2004, 02:51 AM | #38 |
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Yes, but people showing up at your door growling "publish more" and brandishing imitation Middle Earth swords can be quite convincing
Topic? I think the greatest change of Tolkien as compared to most of his predecessors/successors is the degree to which his books are setting-driven rather than plot- or character-driven. That is to say, it's about Middle Earth, not so much about the Ring, or about Aragorn/Gandalf/Frodo/etc., whereas much of the rest of fantasy is more interested in either plots or characters.
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12-12-2004, 03:33 AM | #39 | ||
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I definitely agree... I wonder how much of that is due to his mythological inspirations. For me the difference between Tolkien and other fantasies has been that ME seems like genuine mythology rather than just a story. It sometimes feels frighteningly real for that reason... (I'm not crazy, btw, and I'm not searching for Valinor.... yet ) I suppose this comes out of it being so setting-driven.
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12-12-2004, 02:44 PM | #40 |
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I agree Ellie. Tolkiens world is much more real in a way. he has made his own language, for one thing. I thing it has to do with what Ellie says. In some way ME is more complex and intriguing than other fantasy worlds.
Btw, shall we search for Valinor togheter Ellie?
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