09-16-2003, 06:49 PM | #21 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany
Posts: 192
|
Posted by Artanis:
Quote:
I will not relock the edition numbers but basicly that means: The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes ever On Posted by Maedhros: Quote:
Posted by Wayfarer: Quote:
And for what propose had the Orcs in The Hobbit brought the sword into the cave if not for use or hord as a booty? Respectfully Findegil |
|||
10-07-2003, 02:59 PM | #22 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Gondolin Swords in a T.A. Trolls' Lair
Since it was around 6500 years between the sack of Gondolin and the discovery of these swords in the trolls' lair, and because they were recognized by the orcs (perhaps used against them in the War of the Orcs and Dwarves?), I suspect the swords shared quite a history - and probably changed hands many times.
Here's a wild one for you though: Arador, grandfather of Aragorn, was taken by trolls and killed just 11 years before Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin & Co. had their own troll encounter in the same general area. Could these three trolls have been the trolls who killed Arador? They sure seem kind of bumbling to pull it off - but Tolkien was using a different style when he wrote The Hobbit. And Arador obviously didn't have Gandalf along. Could Arador and possible companions have recently "come into" the swords of Gondolin? And had THEY used them on local orcs? Curiouser, perhaps, is why one of two such treasures would be laid to rest with Thorin - who had only carried it briefly - and though he was the direct heir of Durin's line - was he really important enough to bury that sword with? |
10-14-2003, 04:54 PM | #23 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Good theory about Arador and the swords, Valandil! So many fun things to speculate about ...
I always wondered what Elrond thought when he recognized his great-grandfather's sword ... he seemed rather matter-of-fact about it. I would think he would have been more touched by the sorrow of the memory of the Fall of Gondolin. I wondered about Thorin being buried with the sword, too, but I guess it was "finders, keepers", and he DID find it.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-13-2004, 12:40 PM | #24 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
*bumping* this for a few reasons:
1. To help spur more discussion in the Hobbit forum. 2. To encourage others to look for interesting older threads to revive. 3. Because our "unofficial discussion project" is a bit stalled - and this topic fits right into about where we are.
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
07-13-2004, 01:29 PM | #25 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Re: Gondolin Swords in a T.A. Trolls' Lair
Quote:
About Arador... The only question is, why would he carry the Gpondolin swords, but it sounds logical, that he had them. I think it was buried with Thorin because it was his sword, and its history doesn't matter. It is considered his sword like Glamdring considered Gandalf's sword. |
|
08-13-2004, 05:51 AM | #26 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
I'm guessing the swords were already there as the trolls mention they had only moved down from the mountain 2 weeks before so maybe it was an elvish storage place that had been forgottan about or deserted.
Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 08-22-2004 at 04:22 AM. |
08-18-2004, 11:26 AM | #27 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
|
I think probably what happened was that several elves came back to the battle site. They probably searched the dead to see if anyone was still alive or tosearch for anythin gof value. THey found the swords and took them . Eventually they were passed from elf to elf. Maybe at one point while an elf was roaming outside of rivendell The three trollsd pounced. COnsidering that there was an elf with a sword like those there probably was a fourth troll. The remaining three kill the elf take the swords, not caring if they used to kill orcs cuz theua re goblins and then they put it in their cave and then our little group of adventurers comes along.
|
08-18-2004, 05:42 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Why would elves look in the bodies of their dead, For profit? I think they'd burry them, with the sword - like Thorin. Also, I don't think they had time to search for other Elves - as they were running away of Morgoth's forces, and probably didn't have much time.
And, I can't see how an Elf could get back to Gondolin after it was ruined, since not many knew the way, and Morgoth ruled those lands. |
08-19-2004, 10:55 PM | #29 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
|
Well maybe an orc went back after the fall of GOndolin after which he was kiled by a troll while traveling. That troll may have been killed by an elf. the elf recovered the weapons and on his way back to Rivendell our favorite trolls attacked him and took the swords. The swords being to small for them put them on display in their caves until our heroes came along and took them.
__________________
A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
08-20-2004, 03:58 PM | #30 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
|
|
08-20-2004, 04:03 PM | #31 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
|
well seveal people have said that there were no trolls in Gondolin whihc I find a little wierd. So I figured that ruled out the whole trol thing but also I didnt think the elves would take the weapons from their dead but let them keep it like thorin. Thats what someone said, cant remember who.
__________________
A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
08-20-2004, 04:08 PM | #32 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
|
|
08-20-2004, 04:13 PM | #33 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
|
hmm interesting theroy. It does make since. In that case they would have been beaten by trolls outside Rivendell and then those trolls put them in their cave until Bilbo. But then again why would the elves not use the sword specifically having to do with orc slaying in a fight with orcs. It just raises more and more questions! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
__________________
A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
08-20-2004, 04:16 PM | #34 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
|
|
08-20-2004, 04:19 PM | #35 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
|
yeah thats true. So the elves keep the swords that are specifically used for fighting orcs (s little odd) are wayleighed somwhere on their way home. Then those trolls put the swords in their caves until Bilbo comes along. Its possible except the removal of the swords from the battle. If they strike fear in orcs then why wouldnt they be used. Also didnt Elrond say that they were used in Gondolin.
__________________
A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
10-27-2004, 03:33 AM | #36 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In the Land of Oregon Where the Cherries lie. . .
Posts: 27
|
I hate to pop in just to be a fault finder who can't back info, but on the other site I'm on, the Arador and the Trolls theory was brought up and another member pointed out that the Trolls that slew Arador were one species and the trolls that had the swords were another.
Cave and Wood or Wood and Stone were something like the names he gave to them. I argued that Stone Trolls was just describing them because they were made of stone when they reappear in LotR's but he argued with a few back up quotes that there are actually two species, and Stone Troll is one of them. Hill Troll? Something like that. As I said, I dont' have the quotes with me, but there are quotes to that effect. |
10-27-2004, 03:40 AM | #37 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
EDIT: PS - did this 'other theory' also bring up the possibility that Arador & Co. were carrying the swords of Gondolin? Huh? Huh? Or did I getcha there??
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 10-27-2004 at 03:42 AM. |
|
10-27-2004, 07:53 AM | #38 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Nice bump HGLStrider. I have a theory too... what if orcs looted the swords after the battle, but recognized them for what they were, and tossed them? The orcs in the Hobbit hated the swords, calling the Biter and Beater, so it seems they recognized them. Maybe the swords were part of horrible tales used to frighten orc children, and the orcs remembered the weapons.
Other looters could have picked up the discarded swords, to be eventually stolen by the trolls where Gandalf and company then obtained them. EDIT: Bump credited to the right person.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 10-27-2004 at 12:57 PM. |
||
10-27-2004, 11:48 AM | #39 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Val didn't bump it HLGStrider did!
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-27-2004, 03:01 PM | #40 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Quote:
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas | Gordis | Middle Earth | 217 | 10-03-2013 03:43 PM |
YayGollum's Many As Well As Achingly Unique Tales Of Middle Earth Outcasts! | YayGollum | Writer's Workshop | 29 | 08-16-2007 08:28 PM |
I Got Allot Of Lotr Swords | Creatorss | Middle Earth | 5 | 09-21-2002 05:08 PM |
the origin of trolls | Radagast The Brown | Middle Earth | 20 | 08-14-2002 07:19 PM |
Trolls Talk?!!? | Kyote Fields | The Hobbit (book) | 8 | 08-24-2001 07:14 PM |