The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 1

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Where's that bit about how Gandalf thought Frodo was the best hobbit in the Shire? Is that in LOTR, or somewhere else?

Thats in The BArrow Downs I think when it looks like Frodo is going to die and Sam, Merry and Pippin have been captured.

Originally Posted by Artanis

No, if you read the poem carefully you will see that there are an emerald, and a Silmaril.

Well I don't think that it was an Elessar.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Many Meetings
...He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

Well... don't want to give away the ending ( ), but their love for the Shire sure kept Frodo and Sam going at later crucial moments - didn't it. I think that's sufficient enough. As their 'home' - it had power to inspire them to try and keep it safe.

[The Gaffer]

Very good job, BJ Sorry I've not been around to contribute more to the discussion.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Many Meetings
The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star.

More than awareness; there's the line in this chapter:

They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power.

What's the relation here with "fire of their spirit" that SGH quoted in this thread?

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

You hit the nail on the head. Earendil crops up in Lorien and Shelob's Lair, adding a bit more detail and providing continuity with the histories. Then, later, you read about him in the Sil in the context of the whole First Age, and re-reading these chapters of LOTR brings many more layers of meaning.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

What's the relation here with "fire of their spirit" that SGH quoted in this thread?

Is this the fire like 'the fire of Feanor's spirit, that he was kind of famour for?

You hit the nail on the head. Earendil crops up in Lorien and Shelob's Lair, adding a bit more detail and providing continuity with the histories. Then, later, you read about him in the Sil in the context of the whole First Age, and re-reading these chapters of LOTR brings many more layers of meaning.

Yeah, and how Frodo is inspired to say (oh my goodness, can't remember) Gilthalion A Erendil ... in the prison at the top of the orcs watchtower in Mordor.

EDIT: I just thought of another aspect of this chapter. (I mean, this is the one with the Council of Elrond right?)

Legolas and Gimli did not start out of friends, partly due to how Gloin (Gimli's father) was treated in Thranduil's prison. Do you think Gloin harboured any resentment? I don't think he did after all that time, but if he did, do you think he dealt with it at Rivendell? Would Elrond have been involved, as he is very wise?
I'm also wondering, what was discussed outside of what we "saw" at the Council (if you take my meaning). Did Boromir and Aragorn talk more, etc. ?

[The Gaffer]

As for Gloin, we get a clue as to his feelings in the next chapter when he hears that the Elves felt sorry for Gollum being cooped up and let him out to climb trees.

EDIT *checks thread title * I think we're still on Many Meetings.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

As for Gloin, we get a clue as to his feelings in the next chapter when he hears that the Elves felt sorry for Gollum being cooped up and let him out to climb trees.

EDIT *checks thread title * I think we're still on Many Meetings.

Oh, erm... the Council of Elrond has it's own chapter..? Oops, ignore my out of place comment, I'll move it when the next chapter comes up.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Is this the fire like 'the fire of Feanor's spirit, that he was kind of famour for?

Good question; I'm not sure. Feänor's spirit was supposed to burn brightest of all the Elves, though whether this was metaphorically or literally I couldn't say.

I recall a thread from some time ago (>1 yr) about "feä" (but searching for feä doesn't help because it's too short, so forgive me for not finding it), which is the "spirit" of elves, and which eventually consumes their material bodies so that, in Middle-Earth, they become pure spirit with no material bodies, as SGH points out in that quote.

What I'm wondering is whether it is the "feä" that gives Glorfindel that dual existence.

Gandalf suggests that it was because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, in theory, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn etc would not have the dual existence. That would imply that it's something other than feä, which all elves have. It would also give us another reason to be pedantic about the movie, since Arwen is portrayed in the Glorfindel manner when Frodo is fading towards wraithdom.

What do you think?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I recall a thread from some time ago (>1 yr) about "feä" (but searching for feä doesn't help because it's too short, so forgive me for not finding it), which is the "spirit" of elves, and which eventually consumes their material bodies so that, in Middle-Earth, they become pure spirit with no material bodies, as SGH points out in that quote.

I think that's in HOME 10, Morgoth's Ring.

Let's petition the Powers that Be to change the search limit back to 3 characters!!!!! SGH & Co., would that be OK? There are many times I've wanted to search for rather unique 3-character words and it would have been helpful.

It would also give us another reason to be pedantic about the movie...

LOL!

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think that's in HOME 10, Morgoth's Ring.

Let's petition the Powers that Be to change the search limit back to 3 characters!!!!! SGH & Co., would that be OK? There are many times I've wanted to search for rather unique 3-character words and it would have been helpful.

LOL!

A three characters search engine would make the database too large...

also, if you want to search for feä, probably you can find it using hroa as key

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

What I'm wondering is whether it is the "feä" that gives Glorfindel that dual existence.

Gandalf suggests that it was because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, in theory, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn etc would not have the dual existence. That would imply that it's something other than feä, which all elves have.

Yes, I think it is the fëa (spirit) of Glorfindel that makes him more powerful than most of the other Elves in Imladris, and able to ride out openly against the Black Riders. The Elves who had been in the Blessed Realm, had lived among the Ainur and had seen the light of the two trees had got their fëar strenghtened. But I do not think Gandalf was wording himself correctly when he said that "those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds" because as you said, all Elves have a fëa. All Men have a fëa too. So all Elves and Men have this dual existence. The difference between Glorfindel and most of the remaining Elves (and Men!) in Middle Earth is that his fëa was strong enough to face the threat from the Nazgûl.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yeah, and how Frodo is inspired to say (oh my goodness, can't remember) Gilthalion A Erendil ... in the prison at the top of the orcs watchtower in Mordor.

I think it was 'Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima" and Sam shouted "Gilthoniel A Elbereth"

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I think it was 'Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima" and Sam shouted "Gilthoniel A Elbereth"

that's it
And Sam's my favourite character! Thanks.

Hey, what's 'pedantic'? I detect a clever, wry comment, if only I could understand.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

that's it
And Sam's my favourite character! Thanks.

Hey, what's 'pedantic'? I detect a clever, wry comment, if only I could understand.

Mine too, btw.

Pedantic is where you pick holes in something to an unnecessarily tedious extent. Like "Arwen wouldn't glow like that in Frodo's vision because she hadn't been to the Blessed Realm". Or even taking issue with the word "awareness" like I just did.

Hoom hom. What you say makes sense, as usual, Artanis. That stuff about fea is coming back to me a bit: men are only dimly aware of it, and hence they are terrified of the Nazgul. So maybe we need another word for Glorfindel other than "awareness" or "existing in both worlds".

I also recall that the orcs refer to some fate-worse-than-death of being stripped bare "on the other side" and left to squirm before the Eye. Do you think this is the same "other side"? Is the curtain in Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house supposed to represent a transition through to the "other side"?