06-04-2007, 05:30 PM | #21 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*bops Val on the head with a rubber chicken*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-09-2007, 02:33 AM | #22 | |
Salt Miner
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Location: gone to Far Harad
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06-09-2007, 08:55 AM | #23 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: By the shores of cuivinien
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All peredhel would have had the choice after Mandos pronounced his doom
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This is self evident in the choices given to the offspring of both Elrond and Elros. Elros' children had no choice because their father was a man, due to his choice, so his children were as well mortal. Elrond was peredhel and accounted one of the elves, he married an elf, therefore, his children were peredhel as well (were not Elladan and Elrohir discribed as looking like great men of westernesse in gondor - I am not at home, can't get direct quote). If Elros had chosen to have an elvin queen, his children too then would have the choice set before them, being then indeed peredhel. Another point I agree with, I do believe choosing to be accounted among men would have been the right choice for any peredhel (Earindil knew and if not for Elwing, so he would have chosen). Self evident in the restrictions placed on the children of Elrond; that if they stayed behind when there father departed, then mortal they would become. This is how Arwen gave up her immortality, she chose to stay in ME, when her father went to valinor. PS. Elladan and Elrohir I believed also chose to be accounted men and became lords of gondor as there is no mention ever of them leaving with Elrond. (Tolkien's writing can be very subtle you know). PS2. Could you imagine an elven queen of numinore. If the heir chose to be accounted among the elves, an immortal peredhel king (Tar Peredhel?) would be ruling numinore; how deferent then, would events might have been - interesting.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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06-09-2007, 03:12 PM | #24 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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An elf called Mithrellas married Imrazor the Numenorean around 1800 TA. And what? Their children became mortal by default, no choice given. Lords of Dol Amroth are their descendants. Mithrellas herself has not become mortal - she left one night and never returned to her husband again. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 06-09-2007 at 03:15 PM. |
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06-09-2007, 03:36 PM | #25 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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What Tolkien had in mind ("one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event") was clearly "species". Tolkien clearly referred to Mayr's definition of species as "a group of actually or potentially interbreeding populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups". In short, sub-species or races can interbreed at least potentially, different species can't breed and produce fertile offsprings. |
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06-09-2007, 07:52 PM | #26 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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06-10-2007, 03:51 AM | #27 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Mithrellas wes a silvan Elf, like Nimrodel, so she had nothing to do with Earendil or Elwing. She was no Peredhel - thus no choice. |
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06-27-2007, 11:57 PM | #28 | |
AngAdan
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 06-28-2007 at 12:04 AM. |
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06-28-2007, 09:03 AM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
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Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. |
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06-29-2007, 10:44 PM | #30 | ||
The Insufferable
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Possibly since it seems to only become an issue with Eärendil and Elwing's kids (who were at least second-generation half-elves), they just didn't want a separate race to deal with and decided to file them with one or the others. As it comes to that, I personally find the 'paperwork' explanation makes the most sense. Not literally (although it does amuse me to imagine Tuor breaking into the records in Valinor like Sun Wukong and writing 'elf' on his own) but in the sense that each soul is tagged with a specific fate, which can be changed through appeal to a higher power. By the by, Arwen only actually dies once Aragorn dies. And he dies because he willingly lays down and does so. Arwen goes off and dies in Lothlorien, so the question remains - did her choice impart also to her the aging and death that are natural to humans, or was her death equally voluntary due to her grief? In which case, it's less "Arwen loves Aragorn and so chooses to become Mortal" as "Arwen marries Aragorn. Aragorn inevitably dies. Arwen dies of grief. Mandos sends her on to be with him becuase to do otherwise would be cruel." Yes, the result is the same, but the mechanics are simpler to understand. Quote:
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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07-01-2007, 09:33 PM | #31 | |
AngAdan
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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07-01-2007, 09:37 PM | #32 | |
AngAdan
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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08-28-2007, 06:07 AM | #33 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: England
Posts: 10
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right elrond chose to be elven and elros chose to be a man. this would then make their children what they are. therefore arwen is elven and aragorn, being a decendant of elros, is a man. i dont believe that arwen chose to become mortal because she shouldn't have that choice but instead faded away from grief of her dead husband, much like elves died when their hearts were broken.
if she did have that choice then shouldn't aragorn have had it too considering he is also a decendant of earendil and elwing like arwen?
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A Few Quotes Of Caboose: I Can't Feel My Torso! I Feeel Dizzzzy!!! *Collapses* My Name Is Michael J Caboose And I... Hate... BABIES Running Running RUNNING!!! Last edited by caboose007 : 08-28-2007 at 06:10 AM. |
08-28-2007, 07:31 AM | #34 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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