Free Will and Turin Turambar

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

However, it is apparent that Turin did believe in Morgoth’s curse. I don’t see it as simply an “excuse” that Turin used to justify his many failures. Turin believed Morgoth’s words, and thus gave them power.

Yet Turin didn't know about Morgoth's curse until he found G.....(I forget his name!) when he told him!

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet Turin didn't know about Morgoth's curse until he found G.....(I forget his name!) when he told him!

Hey, TD.

It's Gwindor, BTW. And he says, "But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin."

To which Turin responds, "That I do believe."

Hm... evidence for my theory. Thank you.

Anyway... the story is not even nearly over by the time Turin technically finds out about the curse. And I never said that Turin wasn't unlucky, stupid, or prideful... I think it all adds up, and am not willing to totally discount the curse.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But he only says he believes that not that he knew that.

I doubt he picked up the Thangorodrim Gazette!

[Count Comfect]

I would say what many people seem to have been pointing at: there is something in Turin's makeup (hubris, pride, whatever name you want to call it) that means he would or will not change course no matter who tells him to, up to and including the Valar. So Morgoth's "curse" can also be seen as simply knowing what Turin will do (because if you don't change course you are very predictable) and using that to make his life as horrible as possible.

[Manveru]

thats all well and good that both Melkor and Mandos are Ainur have heard the music and so can "curse" when they want to, and i hate to bring this into a Silmarillion forum, but what about the Curse of Isildur?? He is a mortal man and yet he curses an entire kingdom!! Surely he has never heard the music. Plus even if he had, the curse wasn't a foreknowledge, it was more like a spell, so that they would never die.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

I would say what many people seem to have been pointing at: there is something in Turin's makeup (hubris, pride, whatever name you want to call it) that means he would or will not change course no matter who tells him to, up to and including the Valar. So Morgoth's "curse" can also be seen as simply knowing what Turin will do (because if you don't change course you are very predictable) and using that to make his life as horrible as possible.

Oh, don't mind me, guys. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate (wow, that seems really fitting in this case) and see if an alternative idea can work at all...

So I'm going to run with it for a while until someone really shoots me down, or I convince myself. Which ever comes first.

I'm not trying to say that the Curse was a force in and of itself (not yet, at least ) I think, however, that it became a force.

If the curse had no effect whatsoever, what would have been the point of mentioning it? I'm saying that psychologically, if nothing else, the Curse played a role.

btw, how could Turin's marriage to Nienor have been predicted?

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

But he only says he believes that not that he knew that.

I doubt he picked up the Thangorodrim Gazette!

I think that could be an interesting newspaper.

Anyway, TD, belief can be as important, and as strong, as knowledge. IMO, if Turin believed that Morgoth cursed him, and wandered around living his life believing he was cursed and expecting nothing good to come of anything he did, than in effect he would be cursed.

Does this make any sense at all?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It makes sense. Hurin wasn't cursed before he was captured by Morgoth and Morgoth only cursed him while Hurin was captive and it's probable that Turin had alread been the victim of 'bad luck'!

Does that make sense!

[Durin1]

Turin, by natural inclination, is quiet and reserved, even in childhood, although he possesses unusual sensitivity and pity for someone his age. His personality takes a turn for the worst only after he is forced to depart from his home and seek Thingol in Doriath. His "woes" start as soon as he is separated from Morwen:. a child who, whithin a short period, is deprived of mother and father.

Morgoth systematically aimed to destroy the remnants of Hurin's family, including the rout of the House of Hador. His evil pursues the whole family to their detriment; including the choices that befall them and their own deeds that play a part in their individual downfalls.

IMHO, Morgoth identified that Hurin's taunts and defying was an aspect of the Pride that was inherent in the characteristics of the House of Hador. Therefore, he uses this Pride as the basis for which his curse would work. Hence, Morwen, through her pride refuses to leave her homestead. Nienor disobeys Morwen's order to stay back in Doriath when she wishes to follow her to Nargothrond, and Turin... well we all know what happened to him

Turin early on recognises that there is some sort of shadow that inflicts him and he is beset with bad luck, as well as bad judgement. I believe this is the curse that works its effects.

A physical embodiment of the curse is Glaurung. We are told that Morgoth emparts some of his own "spirit" into the Worm so that he sees through his eyes.

Turin's own internal strifes: bearing the loss of his parents, his Kingdom/people etc; his conflicting moods; sometimes wise beyond his years; possessing both humility (he doesn't really understand how strong and a great warrior he is) and pity, contrasts starkly with: rage; sadness and depression; ill luck; and Pride. I believe that although Turin had some of the latter characteristics from the outset, Morgoth exploits these weaknesses as much as possible through cursing the choices that Hurin's family make, and which ultimately decides their fates.

[Elemmírë]

Some sense, TD. Yes.

And very nice, Durin1.

One question:

Turin early on recognises that there is some sort of shadow that inflicts him and he is beset with bad luck, as well as bad judgement. I believe this is the curse that works its effects.

"Some sort of shadow"... are you implying that you believe that in some form the Curse actually does exist?

Another, somewhat rhetorical question: How can someone have so much bad luck...! The sheer quantity of it, and I can't put all of it down to his pride! It kind of makes the true Curse idea more supportable...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Some sense, TD. Yes.

Yay!

"Some sort of shadow"... are you implying that you believe that in some form the Curse actually does exist?

Another, somewhat rhetorical question: How can someone have so much bad luck...! The sheer quantity of it, and I can't put all of it down to his pride! It kind of makes the true Curse idea more supportable...

Was that directed at me! I don't doubt it's existance, all I'm saying is that I doubt that he knew about it before Gwindor mentioned it. Remember the name he gave himself after leaving Doriath, Neithan the Wronged. Then in Nargothrond, Agarwaen the son of Umarth, which translates to Bloodstained son of Ill-fate.

[Elemmírë]

Sorry, TD, that was directed at Durin1.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Oh well. My statements still stand.

[Elemmírë]

Sure thing.

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

I don't doubt it's existance, all I'm saying is that I doubt that he knew about it before Gwindor mentioned it. Remember the name he gave himself after leaving Doriath, Neithan the Wronged. Then in Nargothrond, Agarwaen the son of Umarth, which translates to Bloodstained son of Ill-fate.

Actually, that's really interesting to look at, IMO. How his names are constantly changing, and why he uses one at one point of time instead of another... though not related to this thread, so I'll shut up now.

...Unless I can figure out some way to weave it into my harebrained theory...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

We can discuss it here.

[Wayfarer]

I'm not so sure that the 'curse' was really a curse in the traditional sense. Or rather, it was, but not in the way that you tend to think of a curse inflicting someone with an evil fate.

The way I see it, what it boils down to is the fact that Morgoth had dissimated most of his power in minions and throughout Middle Earth itself. Think about it. That's a lot of power in a lot of different places. That gives him a lot of leverage if he wants to, say, influence Turin and Nienor down the path to suicide. Take note of the fact that Morgoth is able to show Hurin what's happening with his kids - if he has the ability to get live footage of Turin's tragedy, is it really that much of a stretch to imagine that he might be orchastrating it?

After all, the One Ring shows an ability to tempt otherwise good people down the path to ruin, and since Middle Earth is, as Tolkien called it, 'Morgoth's Ring', it would certainly seem likely that he would possess the ability to tempt Turin to those acts which led to his destruction.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

I'm not so sure that the 'curse' was really a curse in the traditional sense. Or rather, it was, but not in the way that you tend to think of a curse inflicting someone with an evil fate.

That's the way I feel too, Wayfarer. It was a "curse" in a nontraditional sense...

Though your next arguments could be used to support that it could have been a "true" curse also. I think that's a possibility that should not be discounted entirely.

After all, the One Ring shows an ability to tempt otherwise good people down the path to ruin, and since Middle Earth is, as Tolkien called it, 'Morgoth's Ring', it would certainly seem likely that he would possess the ability to tempt Turin to those acts which led to his destruction.

That's a neat (though frightening and ominous) thought. I like it.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Some sense, TD. Yes.

And very nice, Durin1.

One question:



"Some sort of shadow"... are you implying that you believe that in some form the Curse actually does exist?

Another, somewhat rhetorical question: How can someone have so much bad luck...! The sheer quantity of it, and I can't put all of it down to his pride! It kind of makes the true Curse idea more supportable...

I think you pretty much answered your own question!

I definitely believe that a curse did exist. When replying to the taunts of Hurin, Morgoth alludes to the fact that he (Hurin) should not underestimate the power that Morgoth has. Hence the curse that he inflicts.

BTW, curses were quite common, Dwarves are especially proficient in giving them!!

Tolkien was deeply moved by the story of Turin. He spent more time on developing the Narn i Hin Hurin than on any other work, including Beren and Luthien. He created a uniques destiny for Turin to: "redress the wrongs inflicted on his House". In fact, he gains so much prominance that he deals Melkor his death-blow during the Last Battle, standing on one side of Tulkas.

This shows to me that Turin can't have been all that bad and he is unique in that he bears the brunt of Morgoth's malice more than any other character.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It was his pride that was his biggest let down tho.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Durin1

Tolkien was deeply moved by the story of Turin. He spent more time on developing the Narn i Hin Hurin than on any other work, including Beren and Luthien. He created a uniques destiny for Turin to: "redress the wrongs inflicted on his House". In fact, he gains so much prominance that he deals Melkor his death-blow during the Last Battle, standing on one side of Tulkas.

This shows to me that Turin can't have been all that bad and he is unique in that he bears the brunt of Morgoth's malice more than any other character.

I've heard of this destiny of Turin, but I've never actually found it anywhere. Where is it? What is it? Is it an Elvish prophecy, one given by Men, or by the Valar?

Yes, he does bear more of Morgoth's malice, but is this necessarily because Morgoth hated him more than anyone else? Could it have been rather that Morgoth could effect him more than he could effect others?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I wouldn't say he bore Morgoth's malice more than anyone. I'd say Hurin and his kin did. I'd say he bore Glaurungs hate more than anyone, but not Morgoth's.