NOT about Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

exactly, kennedy is a good example too... and it is not all about relations... but it is all about being "chosen" by a relatively small group of people who decided who will be in the running in the first place... and by this i mean "effectively" in the running with that backing of one or the other major political party... sure, anyone can run, and they do... but even you know an independent has absolutely zero chance of even coming close to winning

our political system is slowly becoming a more and more closed playing field

I will adress this and ifg you want to continue - you can do it through PM. Indepentants gain power through lcoal elections - over time - they gain national power. At one time the Republican and denmocratic parties were "thrid" parties. Or do you choose to ignore that at one time the whigs were the dominate party?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

We didn't teach hatred toward the japanese and actually teach death to them.

Our media became basically a propaganda instrument. I've seen the posters and cartoons released in America at the time by the press that showed Japanese people twisted like demons, with horns, wicked expressions and such. Sure we didn't call for "death to all Japanese." But we did even severely oppress the Japanese within our own country by sending them to camps. One doesn't have to say the word "death" to be racist or to teach hatred. Our media and I seem to recall our army also did teach hatred toward the Japanese.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I have posted many of the findings that go on in Saudi Arabian schools. Maybe you should watch and study ome of what they teach in A LOT of the schools in the Arab world. The US has gotten on the case of Saudia Arabia about their curriculum and some things have changed.

Could you give me the links to some of your data? I mean concerning the whole Arab world. If you had mentioned Saudi Arabia specifically, perhaps saying "all the schools of Saudi Arabia", or perhaps, "most of the schools of Saudi Arabia," it would have been easier to swallow then the broad assertion, "the muslims of the Middle East." Your original post was encompassing many places in what it said. However, there are definitely some Middle East countries that have been very supportive of the US, such as Turkey. I argued against the generalization you appeared to be making. If you can provide evidence that most of the Muslim schools in the Middle East, or a very large percentage of them at least, teach hatred of Jews and infidels, I'll be happy to look at your data and perhaps amend my views to fit with what I learn. Though I'd of course look to other sources before I make a firm judgment on the issue, I will be interested in seeing the evidence.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

But they still preach death in the mosques.

I don't deny that this happens in places.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I find your knowledge in this area rather narrow and lacking in many respects Lief.

Ah.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Valandil

My word choice is my own. I'll try harder next time to think of something better to call the two of you when you fight.

Better get PC Val. Jersey gets testy about what you call him. Just about everything is "condescending".

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Our media became basically a propaganda instrument. I've seen the posters and cartoons released in America at the time by the press that showed Japanese people twisted like demons, with horns, wicked expressions and such. Sure we didn't call for "death to all Japanese." But we did even severely oppress the Japanese within our own country by sending them to camps. One doesn't have to say the word "death" to be racist or to teach hatred. Our media and I seem to recall our army also did teach hatred toward the Japanese.

All sides during time of war tries to dehumanize the enemy. As for what you were saying - you were saying that we did the same thing to the japanese in relation to me stating the the middle east calls on the death to jews and infidels. That was NOT the case.

Could you give me the links to some of your data? I mean concerning the whole Arab world. If you had mentioned Saudi Arabia specifically, perhaps saying "all the schools of Saudi Arabia", or perhaps, "most of the schools of Saudi Arabia," it would have been easier to swallow then the broad assertion, "the muslims of the Middle East." Your original post was encompassing many places in what it said. However, there are definitely some Middle East countries that have been very supportive of the US, such as Turkey. I argued against the generalization you appeared to be making. If you can provide evidence that most of the Muslim schools in the Middle East, or a very large percentage of them at least, teach hatred of Jews and infidels, I'll be happy to look at your data and perhaps amend my views to fit with what I learn. Though I'd of course look to other sources before I make a firm judgment on the issue, I will be interested in seeing the evidence.

It's not just saudia arabia though - and I have posted many of those things before. There was a huge article in Time Magazine I posted one time that went over about the schools in the Arab, as well as the ASIAN world - where they do teach hatred and teach to the jews and the west.

I don't deny that this happens in places.

Well at least you don't deny it I suppose. That's a good step. maybe now you can stop defending them all the time too.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

All sides during time of war tries to dehumanize the enemy. As for what you were saying - you were saying that we did the same thing to the japanese in relation to me stating the the middle east calls on the death to jews and infidels. That was NOT the case.

Originally Posted by American Heritage New History of World War 2

The Japanese government, and the U.S. government, characterized the enemy peoples as beasts, roaches, rats, monkeys, and worse in a campaign put out to the masses by government propaganda agencies, using the crudest formats (movies, radio, and press geared to a third-grade reading level). The aim was to teach soldiers and civilians alike to hate the enemy and regard all Americans (or Japanese) as animals to be feared, attacked, and exterminated. It worked. One American veteran recalled, "We had been fed tales of these yellow thugs, subhumans, with teeth that resembled fangs. If a hundred thousand Japs were killed, so much the better. Two hundred thousand, even better." It was a war without mercy.

That sounds to me to be on a par with the hatred and death teachings in the Middle East. Doesn't it sound so to you?

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

It's not just saudia arabia though - and I have posted many of those things before. There was a huge article in Time Magazine I posted one time that went over about the schools in the Arab, as well as the ASIAN world - where they do teach hatred and teach to the jews and the west.

I know it's not really only in Saudi Arabia that things like that take place. Hmm . . . I just spent some time searching google, and I did find articles about Saudi Arabia's hate teachings in schools. I haven't found anything yet about other countries, and am still withholding judgment. Still waiting for a more complete picture .

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Well at least you don't deny it I suppose. That's a good step. maybe now you can stop defending them all the time too.

There isn't just one group of Muslims, with one motive that we can refer to as a "them" when we are talking about Muslims. I am not defending the Muslims attacking the U.S. in Iraq. I am not defending Usama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, the Republican Guard or the Taliban. There isn't one big "them" which includes all Muslims that I am defending. I am certainly not either arguing that the Palestinian terrorists are doing the right thing . I am simply trying to broaden the horizons and enable us to see from their perspectives, to understand the reasons behind their actions. And to understand where our own fault lies, where and when it exists!

[Valandil]

OK - if I HAVE to split off part of this thread, which direction do we take all the non-Islam-in-Europe stuff?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Valandil

OK - if I HAVE to split off part of this thread, which direction do we take all the non-Islam-in-Europe stuff?

There already is an Israel/Palestine thread. Not having much information on Middle East schools in general, our discussion in that area seems relatively useless. I'll cease my noble work of diverting your thread .

[Insidious Rex]

Well thats a useful title. Does that mean we can talk about gardening and the weather?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

....Well thats dandy sport, and I dont consider the US very tolerant either. Frankly....

neither do i, at all. gay rights, anyone?
i think i quite like you, fenir, man after me own celtic heart

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

neither do i, at all. gay rights, anyone?

So tell me - how many european nations have gay marriage? I see that Europe is having the same arguments as the US is. Also - as I have stated in the gay and lesbian thread - the US episicopal chruch was allowing openly gay ministers - while the european branch condemned it.So tell - me - who do your gay rights stand again?

Also - as I have said also too - this is a state issue and it is erroneous to talk about the US as one complete nation - since we are a federation.

[Lief Erikson]

There already is a thread for the gay/lesbian issue. It's my opinion we should ask this thread be closed. Agree? Disagree?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There already is a subject for the gay/lesbian issue.

I am fully aware of that - but I will not let that remark go by when talking about the "intolerance" of the US. It seems as if Europeans have very little understanding of the US or the way our country works. No matter how much I try to explain the issue of states - they don't seem to understand the concept at all.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There already is a thread for the gay/lesbian issue. It's my opinion we should ask this thread be closed. Agree? Disagree?

Point of Order: I was not asking that we discuss gay rights here in this thread, I was merely mentioning the fact that many Americans seem to have a narrow minded view on homosexuality. Also, to JD, I was not about to launch into a discussion on gay marriage, and certainly not on the American system of government. My remark was merely a summation of my agreement with Fenir's note stating he thought the US was not one of the most tolerant western societies, a point I happened to agree with.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

Also, to JD, I was not about to launch into a discussion on gay marriage, and certainly not on the American system of government. My remark was merely a summation of my agreement with Fenir's note stating he thought the US was not one of the most tolerant western societies, a point I happened to agree with.

Well I disagree with that - I think we are one of the most tolerant. We have one of the most diverse societies in the western world - which many of the other western countries don't have to deal with. You can just look at the racial make-up between europe and America.

It's easy to be tolerant when you don't have to deal with the many ethnic groups.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Well I disagree with that - I think we are one of the most tolerant....

well, you can comment from first-hand knowledge, all i know is that which we, and the rest of the world, see through the media, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I really must disappear now, tis gone 4 o'clock in the morning, and is as such too late for me to be getting into any form of debate. Au Revoir!

[Lief Erikson]

By the way, sorry for editing my post on you so fast, Jerseydevil . I have a bad habit of writing a post and posting it, and then editing it multiple times within the next minute or two until it's in the shape I intended it to be in. I don't just do that all before posting.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

well, you can comment from first-hand knowledge, all i know is that which we, and the rest of the world, see through the media, but everyone is entitled to their opinion...

This was the immigration for the US for fiscal year 1998 ending Sept 30th -

Permanent immigrants admitted 660,477
Mexico - 19.9%
China - 5.6%
India - 5.5%
Phillipines - 5.2%
Dominican Republic - 3.1%
Cuba - 2.9%
Vietnam - 2.7%
Ukraine - 2.6%
Jamaica - 2.3%
El Salvador - 2.2%
South Korea - 2.2%
Pakistan - 2.0%
Russia - 1.7%

Refugee Arrivals - 54,645
----------------------------------
The above is only for ONE year of immigrants to this country.

Place of Birth -
Native-born - 245,295,000 - 90.3%
foreign-born - 26,448,000 - 9.7%
Mexico - 7,197,000
Phillipines - 1,45,000
China & Hong Kong - 985,000
Vietnam - 966,000
Cuba - 943,000
India - 839,000
El Salavador - 761,000
South Korean - 611,000
--------------------------------
The above only includes the people born outside the US and then moved here. It does not include their children who were born here.

Here are more detailed stats dealing with 2002 immigration - Estimates of Legal Permanent Residents. New Jersey is the 5th in immigrants - with 543,000. Of course these numbers are only of LEGAL immigrants - not the many many illegal immigrants who live in the US.

For the full report - Immigration Statistics (note that LPRs do NOT include people who move here and become citizens)

here is information from the
Us Immigration Services Official Government site
The American Immigration Center Private company

[edit]This is the make-up of Plainsboro's school system...

STUDENT BODY
The population of West Windsor - Plainsboro High School North and South ... represent all major racial and cultural groups (56 percent White, 34 percent Asian, 5 percent African American, and 5 percent Hispanic). Our students speak 33 languages. The new students who enrolled in the high school for the 2003-2004 school term represent a multitude of countries and states. This diversity affords students excellent opportunities for intercultural understanding and provides them with a global view of world issues.

West Windsor - Plainsboro North & South Student Profile

BTW - someone on the moot who I sent some things to - along with a newspaper made the comment they were surprised to see a black person on the cover of our newspaper - because they don't have that many black people where they live and so don't see them in newspapers.

This is interesting if anyone wishes to comment on this...

Visa refusals for black visitors double in a year
By Lester Holloway
9/12/2003


African and Caribbean visitors who want to enter Britain to attend a family funeral or wedding are much more likely to be refused a visa, according to shock new figures

New Home Office statistics show that visa refusal rates have doubled in just one year for people from Kenya, Nigeria and Gambia.

The situation is even worse for Zimbabwe, which as seen a four-fold increase in the number of Zimbabweans denied entry for a short-term visit to Britain.

But the most startling increase in entry clearance is Jamaica, which has witnessed a massive 500% increase.

Critics say the increase is down to racism from British immigration officials and visa refusals cannot be separated from new harsh government anti-asylum measures.

Also of interest - Grantmakers Concerned with Immigrants and Refugees
[/edit]

[Millane]

im not sure if this is the right thread or not but it seemed best to put it here. is there really a place in Texas that wanted to ban homosexuals from travelling through their town not only is it ****ed up on its own, its incredibly stupid, did they lend a thought to HOW they were going to recognise gays, my thoughts are they had never seen a homosexual and had imagined them as some evil creature not at all human. ill try and find out where it was exactly.
ohhh and another thing this is the same place where they anually celebrate a law that means they dont have to teach evolution in schools
sound like nice and friendly folk dont they, i wonder if they have running water

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Millane

im not sure if this is the right thread or not but it seemed best to put it here. is there really a place in Texas that wanted to ban homosexuals from travelling through their town not only is it ****ed up on its own, its incredibly stupid, did they lend a thought to HOW they were going to recognise gays, my thoughts are they had never seen a homosexual and had imagined them as some evil creature not at all human. ill try and find out where it was exactly.

Whether they wanted to or not - they couldn't do it. I'm sure there are many towns in Australia that are rather backward too.

ohhh and another thing this is the same place where they anually celebrate a law that means they dont have to teach evolution in schools
sound like nice and friendly folk dont they, i wonder if they have running water

We don't have a national education system - therefore - they can teach whatever they like. States and school districts determine their own curriculum and standards. However - textbooks have been an issue - because a texas school district had wanted to limit the teaching of evolution - which can affect the other states in what our textbooks look like. But if our school districts or teachers don't like the books - they will use other methods of teaching.

[inked]

Most amusing having an Irishman pontificate on tolerance! Be ye a religious, Irishman, now? Would reference to a splinter in thy neighbor's eye versus the plank in thine own be of any use?