Moria, Sauron, and the Balrog

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Oh, and a deciever IS a liar, they are one and the same thing.

No, they are not. It's a big difference between this two words.
You can deceive without lying just by withholding some information. (Usual telemarketers ruse )
But you can't lie without deceiving.
In a way a deceiver is a liar, but it not the same thing according to the law.
So, Forkbeard's depiction of Sauron's tactic ( Saying X and doing X, but along comes Z and Y, which he "forgot" to mention) is more in tune with his name : Sauron the Deceiver.

[Count Comfect]

As an utterly minor point, the deception of Gorlim is actually Morgoth in the Lay of Leithian (although I believe it is Sauron in the Sil) so there is some doubt as to whether Sauron did it.

But he definitely lies to Ar-Pharazon with the whole "you will become the ruler of the West" bit.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

As an utterly minor point, the deception of Gorlim is actually Morgoth in the Lay of Leithian (although I believe it is Sauron in the Sil) so there is some doubt as to whether Sauron did it.

But he definitely lies to Ar-Pharazon with the whole "you will become the ruler of the West" bit.

So, thank you CC for making my point. If he lied to Ar-Pharazon, he is a LIAR!!!

[Nurvingiel]

Does it really matter if Sauron is a liar? I think it's pretty clear that he didn't care about the Dwarves. He either would have given them Moria, and left them to the Balrog (if he knew about it). Or gone back on his promise because he's evil.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i think technically sauron was a liar,
remember after the ruin of beleriand, he humbled himself,
and yet would not suffer to be taken to valinor, to
receive the judgement of mandos...

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Does it really matter if Sauron is a liar? I think it's pretty clear that he didn't care about the Dwarves. He either would have given them Moria, and left them to the Balrog (if he knew about it). Or gone back on his promise because he's evil.

Your right, it doesn't matter what you call Sauron. His actions speak for him.

And the only reason we are actually discussing if Sauron Gorthaur; the servant of Morgoth the Black Enemy of the world, and whom in his own time became a dark lord himself, who laid waste to Eregion, caused the downfall of Numenor, Slew Finrod Felagund, and became the greatest evil in ME since the defeat of his master; is a liar, which he clearly is, is due to an earlier post by ForkBeard.

Gotta love that sarcasm.

[Forkbeard]

And in Akallabeth, also in Silmarillion, he fills Ar Pharazon, the human king of westernesse, with lies and deceptions. Yes, deception, and also lies.

SOrt of. The text in Appendix A does use the word "lied" for Sauron...but Sauron really only fanned the flame of what the grumbling against the ban was already saying. And he didn't tell an untruth exactly: it is precisely true that those who possessed the Blessed Realm were immortal! Where the untruth comes in is in the idea that the two go together.

Oh, and a deciever IS a liar, they are one and the same thing.

This is from dictionary.com :

Lie.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

To decieve someone, you offer or tell them something that is untrue for a particular goal, and to offer something that is untrue, or to say something that is untrue, is a lie. But never mind

YOu have the equation backward, I'm afraid. A liar is a deceiver, not every deception is necessarily based on a lie. To take a LoTR example: Bilbo has Frodo wear his mail shirt under his travel cloak, "There's more about you now than appears on the surface." That's a deception, but it isn't a lie.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

No, they are not. It's a big difference between this two words.
You can deceive without lying just by withholding some information. (Usual telemarketers ruse )
But you can't lie without deceiving.
In a way a deceiver is a liar, but it not the same thing according to the law.
So, Forkbeard's depiction of Sauron's tactic ( Saying X and doing X, but along comes Z and Y, which he "forgot" to mention) is more in tune with his name : Sauron the Deceiver.

Thanks Olmer, I should have read the entire thread before responding.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Does it really matter if Sauron is a liar? I think it's pretty clear that he didn't care about the Dwarves. He either would have given them Moria, and left them to the Balrog (if he knew about it). Or gone back on his promise because he's evil.

I don't know if it matters or not, I'm curious is all. Did he just simply lie about giving the Dwarves Moria? Or just what was his deception? Related to this are other questions we've touched on: how much did the Dwarves know about the 7? What was the relationship of the Balrog to Sauron? Why did the Balrog stay in Moria, the subject of another thread? Why, if Sauron wasn't to be trusted, don't the Dwarves just flat out refuse, but instead delay? It seems to me those are all related to discussing my original question.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Bilbo has Frodo wear his mail shirt under his travel cloak, "There's more about you now than appears on the surface." That's a deception, but it isn't a lie.

Not really deception either. He never said anything about it not being there, he just never said anything about it being there.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i think technically sauron was a liar,
remember after the ruin of beleriand, he humbled himself,
and yet would not suffer to be taken to valinor, to
receive the judgement of mandos...

Tolkien himself seems to have different takes on this. IN Letter 131 he says that Sauron at first in the SA began with good motives and worked to rebuild Middle Earth, but over time his pride got the better of him and he again turned to evil.

In a later letter though he seems to indicate that Sauron deceived the Valar from the beginning and that his contrition was false. I can't find that one right now, but will try to take time to do so.

In any event, since Tolkien isn't clear about it, I'm not sure we can be either.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Not really deception either. He never said anything about it not being there, he just never said anything about it being there.

a) How does that make it any less a deception?

b) even if we grant your point, it doesn't do anything to address the overall point I was making.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Your right, it doesn't matter what you call Sauron. His actions speak for him.

And the only reason we are actually discussing if Sauron Gorthaur; the servant of Morgoth the Black Enemy of the world, and whom in his own time became a dark lord himself, who laid waste to Eregion, caused the downfall of Numenor, Slew Finrod Felagund, and became the greatest evil in ME since the defeat of him master; is a liar, which he clearly is, is due to an earlier post by ForkBeard.

Gotta love that sarcasm.

Perhaps...but then no one demanded you participate in the thread. If you don't want to discuss Sauron and whether he lied or just what the nature of his deception was, then don't. QED.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Perhaps...but then no one demanded you participate in the thread. If you don't want to discuss Sauron and whether he lied or just what the nature of his deception was, then don't. QED.

Steady on slick, steady on. If you want to brawl, then you perhaps picked the wrong mooter. I aint actually here for that mate, so anyway.

Have you read the Silmarillion? Because if you haven't then its like trying to sprint before you can crawl, mate.

In sil, the text of which you have already stated that you are "unfamiliar with", Sauron is quite clearly a liar, because, geeeeeeeeeee he LIES to everyone!! [Edited rest of post -- azalea]

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Steady on slick, steady on. If you want to brawl, then you perhaps picked the wrong mooter. I aint actually here for that mate, so anyway.

No, I'm merely pointing out that you seem to dislike the question and so one wonders why you resort to ridicule (which I think you have confused for sarcasm) in a thread the topic of which you have interest in in the first place? No "slick" or "brawl" intended.

Have you read the Silmarillion? Because if you haven't then its like trying to sprint before you can crawl, mate.

A) Yes I have read the Silm, "slick"
B) You might have noted that this forum is Lord of the Rings forum, no extra knowledge is assumed, so when someone asks you to explain a reference to the Silm it is polite to answer with the details instead of this kind of material, don't you agree?

In sil, the text of which you have already stated that you are "unfamiliar with", Sauron is quite clearly a liar, because, geeeeeeeeeee he LIES to everyone!!

I think you need to go back and reread both the earlier post and the Silm. Here's why: first, I didn't say I was unfamiliar with the Silmarillion. I said I wasn't immediately familiar with the details of the Gorlim story that you referred to--considering that in the entire Silm it takes less than a page to tell. Perhaps you have the entire thing memorized or carry with you at all times, but I don't, and I don't recall the details of every story referred to and am not always in a position to check. That's why I ask the kind souls here to be more forthcoming with the details. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of speaking authoritatively or whatever.

Second, though, is that the story of Gorlim does not establish your point. a) as already pointed out to you by the Count, there is a different version of the story elsewhere. More importantly b) Gorlim makes Sauron the offer--release me and my wife from your service and I will tell where to find Barahir. Sauron agrees, Gorlim spills his guts; and then Sauron tells him his wife is dead, and Gorlim will be released from Sauron's service too....by a cruel death. Deception? Absolutely yes! Lie? No, no lie is involved. And most interestingly is that unlike your characterization of Sauron, Sauron only agreed to Gorlim's offer, he made no promises and then did the opposite as you described.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I think you need to go back and reread both the earlier post and the Silm. Here's why: first, I didn't say I was unfamiliar with the Silmarillion. I said I wasn't immediately familiar with the details of the Gorlim story that you referred to--considering that in the entire Silm it takes less than a page to tell. Perhaps you have the entire thing memorized or carry with you at all times, but I don't, and I don't recall the details of every story referred to and am not always in a position to check. That's why I ask the kind souls here to be more forthcoming with the details. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of speaking authoritatively or whatever.

Second, though, is that the story of Gorlim does not establish your point. a) as already pointed out to you by the Count, there is a different version of the story elsewhere. More importantly b) Gorlim makes Sauron the offer--release me and my wife from your service and I will tell where to find Barahir. Sauron agrees, Gorlim spills his guts; and then Sauron tells him his wife is dead, and Gorlim will be released from Sauron's service too....by a cruel death. Deception? Absolutely yes! Lie? No, no lie is involved. And most interestingly is that unlike your characterization of Sauron, Sauron only agreed to Gorlim's offer, he made no promises and then did the opposite as you described.

My god man, this is getting tiresome.
[Edited]
Sauron lies to Ar Pharazon in Akalabeth. He says that he can invade Valinor and live forever, and that he can defeat the Valar in battle, things which Sauron knows to be false. Therefore, he lied to Ar Pharazon. A two year old would understand that. Why do you keep defending Sauron?
[Edited]
And if you, as you have done, make a claim such as, say, Sauron is not a liar, we should be free as mooters to draw upon ANY relevant data so as to explore the point in detail.
[Edited]

[Earniel]

Please discuss the topic without further personal attacks, thank you.

[Forkbeard]

[Edited portion of quoted post]
[Edited portion of response]
I've attempted to be neutral in my posts to you, yet you seem to think that I'm itchin' for a fight. I'm itchin' for a good discussion, but not a brawl, but that it obviously not how I'm being perceived.
[Edited]

Sauron lies to Ar Pharazon in Akalabeth. He says that he can invade Valinor and live forever, and that he can defeat the Valar in battle, things which Sauron knows to be false.

Now was that so difficult? But it still doesn't justify just saying that Sauron lied to the dwarves. Unlike the deception of Numenor in which Sauron merely told untruths that fanned the flames of thoughts that had already occurred and been in the hearts of the Numenoreans for generations, here he promises something concrete and measurable. I think it is just too easy to say "he lied" and let it go; I think if that were the case, the dwarves wouldn't even have bothered to listen but would have rejected the offer out of hand.

Why do you keep defending Sauron?

Let me see, calling him a deceiver is a defense? I find that odd.

[Edited portions of response to post that has now been edited.]
I merely pointed out that for the purposes of this forum, intimate knowledge of the SIlm isn't required.
[Edited]

Read the forum rules.

And if you, as you have done, make a claim such as, say, Sauron is not a liar, we should be free as mooters to draw upon ANY relevant data so as to explore the point in detail.

This contains two things I didn't say. I never said that Sauron wasn't a liar. The question is whether he lied in the embassy to Dain or not, and in pointing out that many of the examples of Sauron lieing that have been brought out aren't really lies but deceptions, such as your Gorlim example.

And of course you're free to draw on any relevant data.

[Edited]

So back to the question: where do we have Sauron lieing by promising A, and then not delivering, as in the situation with the Dwarves?

FB

[Wayfarer]

So back to the question: where do we have Sauron lieing by promising A, and then not delivering, as in the situation with the Dwarves?

More importantly, why would that be something he wanted to do? The Dwarven rings were really no use to him, and (I get the impression) they had previously proved instrumental in destroying and scattering many of the most dangerous dwarf-families.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

More importantly, why would that be something he wanted to do? The Dwarven rings were really no use to him, and (I get the impression) they had previously proved instrumental in destroying and scattering many of the most dangerous dwarf-families.

Hmmm... so that perhaps a SECOND go-round with giving the Durin-ring back to Durin's Folk would enhance the chances of destroying them?

Plausible...