How powerful were these 'revised' Balrogs really?

[afro-elf]

The problem here as has been pointednout before is that the Prof. changed his mind over the years.

My sources I IF recall properly are the book of LT or UT for athletic Galadriel

The same for Olorin

The others I BELIEVE I scoped out in Com. Guide to ME


However, I would defer to those greater than I on these accounts.

[Captain Stern]

posted by Aretelaugh:

Galadriel? not exactly known for her single combat skills but in spirit perhaps she was the strongest. See had been to Valinor and seen the two trees, associated with many of the great among the Noldor, and was a bearer of one of the three rings.

Correct me if I'm wrong but does combat with Maiar always entail purely physical involvement?

How about Finrod Felagund and Sauron's magical duel in "Of Beren and Luthien" I don't think there was and physical involvement there on either part. I can't see why Elf women such as Galadriel and Luthien couldn't battle Maiar in this way?

[AreteLaugh]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Correct me if I'm wrong but does combat with Maiar always entail purely physical involvement?

How about Finrod Felagund and Sauron's magical duel in "Of Beren and Luthien" I don't think there was and physical involvement there on either part. I can't see why Elf women such as Galadriel and Luthien couldn't battle Maiar in this way? [/B]

A contest in poetry with a Balrog? Sing the Balrog to sleep? Hmmm... If Luthien could sing Morgoth to sleep I tend to think that even a surprised Galadriel could have been capable of some kind of 'meaningful interaction' with the Balrog of Moria. What form this took is anyone's guess but the elves do seem to show a liking for just this kind of contest. I do not think it would be able to just stomp on her and move on.

Galadriel's strongest ability seems to be in the enchantment of objects or places so I wonder what she might have created if she knew what she would be facing. I wonder what effect a Galadriel created artifact (such as the Phial) would have had on the Balrog.

I wonder if Gandalf had had more time he might have made a much better showing with the Balrog. The White Council (which included Galadriel) when acting in concert seemed to be pretty capable.

Moving a little further into the land of wild speculations...

There seems to be a trend in Tolkien's writing to the effect that the more focused a spirit (Maiar or Vala) becomes on either it's incarnation or the more domination the spirit puts forth the the more weaker the spirit becomes. A Balrog is very focused on it's incarnation so it might have a weakness for song...

[Captain Stern]

I was under the impression that the 'poetry' in the battle between Finrod and Sauron was merely an interpretation of the 'magical' duel, in the same way as the 'music' of the Ainur was an interpretation of the magical forces used to create the world.

I doubt that all Luthien's enchantments could achieve was to make someone fall asleep. Perhaps she knew that she couldn't do much harm to Morgoth, and so, to prevent attention being drawn to herself by assaulting Melkor with a song that caused offensive damage, she wisely chose to make him fall asleep, the only viable option under the circumstances. Perhaps against a lesser enemy like a Balrog she could have done it harm rather than cast a bewildering enchantment on it.

Out of interest does it say anywhere that Galadriel created the phial? I was always under the impression that it was given to her. Galadriel never seemed to share her love of craft like her kin among the Noldor.

Galadriel's strongest ability seems to be in the enchantment of objects or places so I wonder what she might have created if she knew what she would be facing.

I think that confining an Eldar's powers to a particular field is inaccurate. Of course some had powers more strongly in certain areas of expertise like Feanor and his crafting.
In Tolkien's world, unlike many other Fantasy stories out there, the power of the individual is paramount, the role of magical objects are very secondary and no one seems to rely on them in the stories of Middle Earth to a great degree. Of course there's the One Ring but that was basicaly 90% of Sauron

I would imagine that Galadriel would have battled in a very similar way to Luthien.

[AreteLaugh]

I quite agree that the poetry is an interpretation of the experience of watching the battle between Finrod and Sauron but that does not preclude the possibility that they actually used song as the medium for the battle. Music can be a very powerful thing and contending themes of music seems a complex enough medium for a test of wills or spirits.

As for the music of the Ainur, I would assume that Eru, or the Ainur, could make the experience appear to a mortal in any form they chose. How a mortal would describe the experience of witnessing the Music of the Ainur seems a very moot point. Still the Silmarillion describes the Music of the Ainur not as being 'like' music but as 'being' music. Could music at that time had properties it does not latter have? Who has heard a Vala sing?

Luthien definitely had a winning strategy and that's what matters. Still in Tolkien you don't see much of the heavy artillery type of magic and you especially don't see it between individuals. Gandalf does a little in the Hobbit and LOTR but by and large the most powerful magics are enchantments (Anduril, the Ring, Lorien). I did not want to imply the Galadriel could not throw a fireball at Balrog but they she probably would choose a different strategy (as Luthien did).

The Phial of Galadriel is described as being;

"In this phial is ... caught the light of Eärendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain. "

While she doesn't explicitly that she made it, it was made from her fountain. I have the impression from my readings that the Noldor made a lot of lesser 'magic items', but that we do not hear about them because they do not directly involve the story. Additionally the major items the Noldor made are so powerful that they sort of overwhelm everything else.

I'm not so sure I follow you when you say you think that the role of the magic item are very secondary in Tolkien. What would you say about the Simarills?

[Captain Stern]

I pretty much agree with you.

I'm not so sure I follow you when you say you think that the role of the magic item are very secondary in Tolkien. What would you say about the Simarills?

In other Fantasy books there are often, for example: amazing swords "that give their wielders god like powers" or "a suit of armour that can't be breached by any weapon forged by man or demon" e.t.c

In Tolkien's world individuals are far more important than any items, with the huge exception of, as you pointed out, the silmarills to which the very fate of Arda was bound.

[Agburanar]

The Balrogs were probably more powerful than Sauron, they were just bred to believe him superior. They were unconcerned with riches, power, tactics etc. and their brute strength and FIRE, I know Sauron's hands 'burnt with a black flame' but the Balrogs could command it, would have overcome many foes. They were bred to drive dragons into battle so they must have been hard as nails.

Oh yeah, individuals' virtues are much more important than weapons etc, especially courage intelligence and magicness.

[Captain Stern]

Oh yeah, individuals' virtues are much more important than weapons etc, especially courage intelligence and magicness.

That in essence is what I meant.

QUOTE]The Balrogs were probably more powerful than Sauron, they were just bred to believe him superior. They were unconcerned with riches, power, tactics etc. and their brute strength and FIRE, I know Sauron's hands 'burnt with a black flame' but the Balrogs could command it, would have overcome many foes. They were bred to drive dragons into battle so they must have been hard as nails.[/QUOTE]

The revised Balrogs were not bred, they were Maiar, Sauron WAS superior to them, this didn't need to be drilled into their minds.
The Balrog's were not more powerful than Sauron. Sauron was said to be the greatest of the Maiar. If a Balrog was more powerful than Sauron then there is no way that Gandalf could have overcome Durin's Bane.

They were unconcerned with riches, power, tactics etc.

I don't think that's true, Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was High Captain of Angband, which meant he was commander in the field of battle.

Another point to add to the general discussion: It's accepted that Sauron's power had diminished by the 3rd Age, so couldn't this then be the case with Durin's Bane? It would go a long way towards explaining Gandalf's slaying of the Balrog.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by Agburanar
The Balrogs were probably more powerful than Sauron, they were just bred to believe him superior. They were unconcerned with riches, power, tactics etc. and their brute strength and FIRE, I know Sauron's hands 'burnt with a black flame' but the Balrogs could command it, would have overcome many foes. They were bred to drive dragons into battle so they must have been hard as nails.

Oh yeah, individuals' virtues are much more important than weapons etc, especially courage intelligence and magicness.

Balrogs were not bred, they were Maia allied to Melkor.

[bropous]

A hearty welcome to the Moot, Arete. As for the question, "who has heard a Vala sing", that would be all of the Calaquendi, that is, all of the Elves who went to Aman at the behest of the Valar and dwelt therein in the light of the Two Trees. These would be the Vanyar, the Noldor, and [most of] the Teleri.

As for the rest of the discussion, the powers of Galadriel, whether any Elves could best a Balrog in the Third Age, the differentiation between poetry and magic, etc., I'm gonna bow out of this one, as I'm re-reading the Silmarillion and want to be a bit better informed on the topics in question. I know, out of character for me, but we all learn and grow, right?

However, as for the "Balrogs being more powerful than Sauron", sorry, that's simply not the case. Of the servants of the Great Enemy, Morgoth: "...Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel". Gothmog having a name, not even he was greater than Sauron, chief lieutenant of, and heir to the throne of, Morgoth the Enemy.

[Agburanar]

Alright, not bred, but they were changed when they allied themselves with Morgoth and forsook the other Valar.

What's with Melkor and Morgoth, are they the same valar or have I got it wrong from the start?

[EdBlackadder]

Hi, i'm pretty new around here, just thought i'd make an input.

First, is Gandalf/Mithrander/Olorin etc. a Maia?
I had always assumed that he and his Brethren were creatures created by the Vala,maybe with the intervention of Eru, much as the Dwarves and Ents were, just EXCEPTIONALLY powerful ones.

Second, couldn't the Balrog's power have faded like that of the other creatures of Middle Earth?????? After all, Sauron was weakened (through the loss of his Ring), perhaps in agreeing to serve Melkor and falling from grace just as he did, they became bound to himm so they were diminished by his banishment?????

Just a little theory from a young Tolkien nut

[Lightice]

Originally posted by EdBlackadder
Hi, i'm pretty new around here, just thought i'd make an input.

First, is Gandalf/Mithrander/Olorin etc. a Maia?
I had always assumed that he and his Brethren were creatures created by the Vala,maybe with the intervention of Eru, much as the Dwarves and Ents were, just EXCEPTIONALLY powerful ones.

Second, couldn't the Balrog's power have faded like that of the other creatures of Middle Earth?????? After all, Sauron was weakened (through the loss of his Ring), perhaps in agreeing to serve Melkor and falling from grace just as he did, they became bound to himm so they were diminished by his banishment?????

Just a little theory from a young Tolkien nut

As well as we know, Gandalf was very much maia, as were other Istari. There is direct mention of it somewhere. They were sent from far west as messangers of Valar to balance power of Sauron. So sorry, but no. They were nothing like dwarves or ents.

That is possible, though I don't remember Sauron weakening exept losing possibility to make himself beautiful. Ofcourse losing the Ring weakened him, but that had nothing to do with fall of Morgoth. I may be wrong, though and it might be possible. I don't have certain knowledge about it.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Melkor and Morgoth were one in the same. Feanor originated the name Morgoth after the silmarils were stolen.

Melkor is a Quenya name meaning 'He who arises in might' where as Morgoth is Sindarin meaning 'black foe or enemy'.

[AreteLaugh]

Originally posted by bropous
A hearty welcome to the Moot, Arete. As for the question, "who has heard a Vala sing", that would be all of the Calaquendi, that is, all of the Elves who went to Aman at the behest of the Valar and dwelt therein in the light of the Two Trees. These would be the Vanyar, the Noldor, and [most of] the Teleri.

Thanks for the welcome. It's good to be here.

Yes you are quite right! What I should have said was "Who heard the Music of the Ainur?" Furthermore I think that listening to the Vala sing, even after Eä was created, must have been a very enlighting experience for the elves present. I'm not so sure I would include '[most of] the Teleri" in the elves who went to Aman. I thought there were still quite a few Teleri in Beleriand and the West of Middle-Earth when the Noldor returned. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Lightice

That is possible, though I don't remember Sauron weakening exept losing possibility to make himself beautiful. Ofcourse losing the Ring weakened him, but that had nothing to do with fall of Morgoth. I may be wrong, though and it might be possible. I don't have certain knowledge about it.

There is a passage in 'Of the Sun and the Moon' in the Silmarillion that I find interesting;

"And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds."

I think that a literal interpretation is what is intended here. Morgoth's spirit was literally being drained away and dispersed. I think Sauron probably had the same problem. Beside being no longer capable of assuming a fair form Sauron I think he had probably lost a great many other abilities as well. It is a tribute to the power of their spirits that they could cause as much trouble for as long as they did!

FYI Arien is the loyal/good Maia that guided the Sun, being originally a spirit of fire (probably akin to the Balrogs) not seduced by Morgoth.

[bropous]

Welcome to the Moot, EdBlackadder!

"...I'm not so sure I would include '[most of] the Teleri" in the elves who went to Aman. I thought there were still quite a few Teleri in Beleriand and the West of Middle-Earth when the Noldor returned..."

Arete: The qualification, "most of the Teleri" reflected that many of that strain of the Eldar remained in Middle-Earth and had never gone to Valinor; also, it reflects those of the Teleri who dwelt in Alqualonde and never went through the Calacirya to mingle among the Valar.

Also, maybe you mean "who heard the Music of Iluvatar"? In THAT case, no Child of Iluvatar ever heard it, only the Valar, Maiar, and those other spirits who never left Iluvatar to enter the World.

As for the question whether Olorin/Mithrandir/Gandalf was a Maiar, yes he was, and is listed as the "wisest of the Maiar" in the Silmarillion, "valaquenta", pages 24-25 . All the Istari were Maiar.

[EdBlackadder]

Originally posted by Lightice


As well as we know, Gandalf was very much maia, as were other Istari. There is direct mention of it somewhere. They were sent from far west as messangers of Valar to balance power of Sauron. So sorry, but no. They were nothing like dwarves or ents.

That is possible, though I don't remember Sauron weakening exept losing possibility to make himself beautiful. Ofcourse losing the Ring weakened him, but that had nothing to do with fall of Morgoth. I may be wrong, though and it might be possible. I don't have certain knowledge about it.

Originally posted by bropous


As for the question whether Olorin/Mithrandir/Gandalf was a Maiar, yes he was, and is listed as the "wisest of the Maiar" in the Silmarillion, "valaquenta", pages 24-25 . All the Istari were Maiar.

Thanks for the clarification, i've never spotted the link between Gandalf and the Maia before. Its strange, i've read that a dozen times and never spotted it.

I agree with AreteLaugh, that reference seems to be meant literally. It always seemed to me that Sauron and Morgoth etc. are most powerful in the area where they were physically present, while the others could function just as well, if not better, in spirit. Is the price they paid for their betrayal, losing the ability to affect a wider area directly?

Thanks for the welcome and the feedback

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by EdBlackadder
It always seemed to me that Sauron and Morgoth etc. are most powerful in the area where they were physically present, while the others could function just as well, if not better, in spirit. Is the price they paid for their betrayal, losing the ability to affect a wider area directly?

It was not a result of their betrayal, per se. I would say it's more a consequence of what they chose to become.

Melkor and Sauron became physical, and thus gained much greater power over the physical realm. However, the price for this was that they lost much of thier power in other areas, and, as noted, they were very much 'localized'.

You see this to some degree in the good Valar, as well. Tulkas and Orome, for example, as the most 'physical' of the Valar, (although they had not lost the ability to be anything else) are very powerful in the physical realm, but certainly nowhere near the power of Ulmo and Manwe, who had power throughout Water and Air, respectively.

[bropous]

"It always seemed to me that Sauron and Morgoth etc. are most powerful in the area where they were physically present, while the others could function just as well, if not better, in spirit. Is the price they paid for their betrayal, losing the ability to affect a wider area directly?"

Wow. Good questions, and unfortunately, ones to which my EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO skills can find no answer.

Good answer, though, Wayfarer; however, I do not think Tulkas' and Orome's lesser power than Aule or Manwe or Ulmo has as much to do with being more "physical." Melkor was the "mightiest of those ainur who came into the World"; second was Manwe, who was "lord of the realm of Arda and ruler of all who dwell therein"; Ulmo , Lord of the Waters, was "next in might to Manwe"; and Aule "has might little less than Ulmo". All quotes from the Silmarillion, "Valaquenta", "Of the Valar", pages 18-20.

I tell you folks, this discussion group has REALLY honed my Tolkien skills, and has greatly increased my understanding of both Lord of the Rings and The Silmarilion. You people are like a whetstone to a blade!

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by bropous
[I do not think Tulkas' and Orome's lesser power than Aule or Manwe or Ulmo has as much to do with being more "physical." [/B]

Nah... I was unclear on that again. But the nature of thier power is different, in that they were more physical, and thus they were more apt in that particular area.

Just as Melkor invested his power into matter, giving him power over it, severely weakened his power in other areas, so their physicality prevents them from using thier powers in the same way that others of the valar could.

The fact that they're weaker is completely seperate.