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09-07-2004, 06:11 PM | #21 | ||
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Arty - Thanks for the Legolas quote - I had forgotten that one!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-08-2004, 01:49 AM | #22 | ||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 09-08-2004 at 01:51 AM. |
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09-17-2004, 06:26 AM | #23 | |||
Elf Lord
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Very good job, BJ Sorry I've not been around to contribute more to the discussion.
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09-17-2004, 07:19 AM | #24 | ||||
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EDIT: I just thought of another aspect of this chapter. (I mean, this is the one with the Council of Elrond right?) Legolas and Gimli did not start out of friends, partly due to how Gloin (Gimli's father) was treated in Thranduil's prison. Do you think Gloin harboured any resentment? I don't think he did after all that time, but if he did, do you think he dealt with it at Rivendell? Would Elrond have been involved, as he is very wise? I'm also wondering, what was discussed outside of what we "saw" at the Council (if you take my meaning). Did Boromir and Aragorn talk more, etc. ?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 09-17-2004 at 07:24 AM. |
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09-17-2004, 07:46 AM | #25 |
Elf Lord
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As for Gloin, we get a clue as to his feelings in the next chapter when he hears that the Elves felt sorry for Gollum being cooped up and let him out to climb trees.
EDIT *checks thread title * I think we're still on Many Meetings. |
09-17-2004, 07:54 AM | #26 | |||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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09-17-2004, 07:57 AM | #27 | |
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I recall a thread from some time ago (>1 yr) about "feä" (but searching for feä doesn't help because it's too short, so forgive me for not finding it), which is the "spirit" of elves, and which eventually consumes their material bodies so that, in Middle-Earth, they become pure spirit with no material bodies, as SGH points out in that quote. What I'm wondering is whether it is the "feä" that gives Glorfindel that dual existence. Gandalf suggests that it was because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, in theory, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn etc would not have the dual existence. That would imply that it's something other than feä, which all elves have. It would also give us another reason to be pedantic about the movie, since Arwen is portrayed in the Glorfindel manner when Frodo is fading towards wraithdom. What do you think? |
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09-17-2004, 11:23 AM | #28 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-17-2004, 04:56 PM | #29 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Let's petition the Powers that Be to change the search limit back to 3 characters!!!!! SGH & Co., would that be OK? There are many times I've wanted to search for rather unique 3-character words and it would have been helpful. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-18-2004, 05:49 AM | #30 | |
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also, if you want to search for feä, probably you can find it using hroa as key
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09-19-2004, 12:44 PM | #31 | |||
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And Sam's my favourite character! Thanks. Hey, what's 'pedantic'? I detect a clever, wry comment, if only I could understand.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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09-19-2004, 01:00 PM | #32 | |
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09-20-2004, 08:02 AM | #33 | |
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Pedantic is where you pick holes in something to an unnecessarily tedious extent. Like "Arwen wouldn't glow like that in Frodo's vision because she hadn't been to the Blessed Realm". Or even taking issue with the word "awareness" like I just did. Hoom hom. What you say makes sense, as usual, Artanis. That stuff about fea is coming back to me a bit: men are only dimly aware of it, and hence they are terrified of the Nazgul. So maybe we need another word for Glorfindel other than "awareness" or "existing in both worlds". I also recall that the orcs refer to some fate-worse-than-death of being stripped bare "on the other side" and left to squirm before the Eye. Do you think this is the same "other side"? Is the curtain in Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house supposed to represent a transition through to the "other side"? |
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09-20-2004, 12:04 PM | #34 | |||||
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I think this is certainly possible. What, in that case, was the significance of the tower dream Frodo had there? (The one with the sea.) (If we're allowed to discuss old chapters.)
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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09-23-2004, 01:25 PM | #35 | ||
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I was wanting to distinguish between being aware of something and actually having a dual existence. The discussion suggests that men and elves both have this dual existence but perhaps with men it's weaker. Maybe that's why their awareness of it is like your building scenario in that they don't really know it. Quote:
There's a clear change in writing style when the hobbits enter his world, and it leads them into an awareness of this (or a) spiritual world. I think Frodo's vision/dream in Tom's house happens for that reason: as his introduction. These sorts of references are, in Tom's dialogue, mixed in with earthy and instinctual type things (such as how if the ponies smell danger, they run the right way). I wonder if JRRT's intention was to position things like "instinct", "insight" and "foresight" as aspects of the spiritual world. It's interesting, then, that Sam doesn't have any dream. |
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09-23-2004, 04:54 PM | #36 |
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i always saw frodo's dream as a glimpse to the end of the novel... the ultimate reality that in the end he'd be forced to leave middle earth to find peace
which kind of fits in with my view of tom bombadil... i always saw him as the 'moral' of the story... the only character completely content with himself and his place in the world... thus uneffected by the ring and any of the other 'evils' (or 'goods') of the world the vision in tom's house was a sign from tom to frodo that in the end he too might find this contentment
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09-23-2004, 04:56 PM | #37 |
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At first I thought it was something to do with Frodo's path crossing that of the elves, but when I reread it I noticed the link with the end.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-24-2004, 04:40 AM | #38 | ||
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Yes, I think that's definitely the case.
I wondered if Sam could also fit into this category (i.e. of contented characters), and that was why he didn't have a dream. Basically, Sam inherits what Frodo has to sacrifice. Just to pick up on another couple of points: Quote:
Other possibilities include his concern for Bilbo, and the importance (for Bilbo) that he gave up the Ring willingly). We also find out in this chapter why he didn't reveal the Ring's existence to Saruman. Perhaps he thought the Ring was safer in the Shire than sitting on a table at the White Council with Saruman eyeing it. But we can also make sense of this if we realise that "the tale grew in the telling" and therefore contains some inconsistencies. Quote:
Last edited by The Gaffer : 09-24-2004 at 04:53 AM. |
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09-24-2004, 10:14 AM | #39 | |||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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09-24-2004, 10:34 AM | #40 | |
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Still though... perhaps he had to check on some of the other Seven... and get back to Elrond and Galadriel ... ("Are you SURE that's how many there were???" )
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