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#21 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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Western Europe is democratic. The East is easily forgotton sometimes.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#22 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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By the way Wayfarer - do you mean "depocratic" as in depoliticized? ![]()
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-09-2003 at 05:28 PM. |
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#23 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
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If you want to see it in terms of numbers, the figures I've seen put US combat deaths at around 300,000, very similar to those of the UK. But in either case they pale into insignificance compared to 6 million Soviet combat deaths. Also about 90% of German combat deaths occured on the Eastern front. Whichever way you look at it, the Eastern Front was THE decisive front in the war in Europe. And to say that the western allies made a crucial difference to who won on the Eastern front is optimistic at best: if anything the resistance movements (especially the Yugoslavs) had more of an effect in drawing German troops out of that theatre. That's not saying that the outcome would have been good for Europe - like I say, the Iron Curtain would have been a fair way west of where it ended up. And Britain destroyed either way? I'm sure you'd like to think that...but Rule Two of world domination: sailing for Dover is usually as fruitless as marching on Moscow!
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#24 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: on the boats
Posts: 264
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Does anyone happen to know what UK, US, Soviet, German populations were during WWII?
Last edited by Hemel : 12-10-2003 at 07:28 AM. |
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#25 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Last Homely House
Posts: 52
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To Hemel's question, they were probably declining (death and so forth).
What was so important about Pearl Harbour EXCEPT for the fact that GRandpa Simpson was asleep on watch duty at the time?
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#26 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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#27 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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The Soviet Union had already withstood the worst that the Third Reich could throw against it (Stalingrad), and was beating it back in 1942. How would Britain have been destroyed? "One way or another" doesn't seem to be much of a battle plan. The loss of American lives was was emphatically not a waste- as well as shortening the War and saving millions of lives, it saved Western Europe from the horrors that Stalin imposed on Eastern Europe. Sorry, but WWII in Europe was not won by Tom Hanks or the Band of Brothers- it was a great struggle fought by very different Allies ; however , the facts are reasonably clear- American intervention certainly aided the defeat of Hitler and maintained the freedom of Western Europe; unlike the Pacific Theatre , it was by no means decisive.
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#28 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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This also explains why, when they started to lose, the Germans preferred to surrender to the Western enemies... Russians call it the Great Patriotic War (I think). Apologies for the gratuitous picture, but the Red Flag on the Reichstag is one of the defining images of the 20th century. |
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#29 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
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#30 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston TX USA
Posts: 245
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The fact is, however, that no one really understood the implications of the carriers on 12/7/41. Battleships were considered king of the seas by the conventional military wisdom of the time, and were the main target of the attack. I suspect that the evisceration of the battleship component of the fleet contributed heavily to a change in American naval doctrine that emphasized carriers.
A more unforgivable strategic error on the part of the Japanese, IMO, was their failure to seize Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack. Doing so would have crippled the ability of the carriers to regroup in the central and eastern Pacific.
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#31 | |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#32 | |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Not to take anything away from them taking it, I just wanted to point out that tidbit of History ![]()
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#33 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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By the way - a lot of this thread has just been... more of "damned if we do, damned if we don't". Repeatedly in threads Europeans complain that the US didn't get into World War II right away. Now those same people are saying that we weren't even needed and that Britain would have survived.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-11-2003 at 07:09 PM. |
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#34 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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I don't think it was in the realm of possibility for the Japanese to take Pearl Harbor. Making an airstrike is one thing, taking possession is another. Hawaii was far from their sphere of power - and VERY distant from their power base. Plus, they already had most of their ground troops commited in places like Philipines, China, Korea, Burma, etc, etc. |
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#35 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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America certainly saved Britain, not least by keeping us supplied throughout. Without US involvement, there's no way the British could have invaded Italy or Normandy, and the Japanese would probably have taken Australia. At the same time, if Britain had surrendered in 1940, there would have been no North African victory, and therefore no invasion of Italy; no Normandy landings and no second/third front for Hitler to fight. Then it would've been a straight fight between Hitler and Stalin for control of Europe, and then what? So, if you believe that all that stood between Germany and victory in Russia was a second front in Europe (though Italy wasn't invaded until after Stalingrad), you could argue that the Battle of Britain was decisive in the outcome of the war. You could even argue that Chamberlain's much-maligned "appeasement" saved us all (even if it was inadvertent). Quote:
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Last edited by The Gaffer : 12-12-2003 at 08:18 AM. |
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