04-12-2006, 08:43 AM | #21 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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As Gordis and I have previously discussed via email, I think that Angmar attacked Fornost late in the year 1974 - early in the 1974-75 winter. It seems to contradict JRRT's direct statement about them attacking before a particular winter (which seems to be 73-74) had passed - but it works much better with Arvedui's attempted rescue from Forochel by Cirdan's ship, after being aided by the Lossoth (which appears to be clearly in 1975). There's no reason Arvedui would have waited up there through a summer and into the following winter, after fleeing Fornost.
I think the inconsistences stem from the apparent fact that JRRT never really got back to this story to firm it all up. I think the forces of Angmar were content to mostly hang out in Fornost in the rest of the winter of 74-75. I bet they sent out raids to terrorize the surrounding areas (including Bree and the Shire), but I doubt they did any other full-scale assaults. They were probably waiting for Spring of 1975 - but the forces of Gondor got to them first. I believe my fanfic account is a reasonable enough interpretation of what happened. There are enough inconsistencies already - and enough loose threads, that it's mostly plausible. However - there could easily be thousands of other interpretations. Gordis certainly spotted some flaws in my account though - so I may re-think it. I like to hope it's dramatic enough. (if anyone is interested - it's in Letter #11 of "Letters of Firiel" - which you can find from the link in my sig) There could have been other heirlooms of Arnor. One notable one I think of: the Sword of Isildur was apparently recovered in the search for him (see "The Disaster of the Gladden" in UT). I would think this would be highly treasured - and maybe was held nearly as mighty as Narsil - and yet was unbroken. I suspect it could easily have been lost at the deaths of any of the Kings slain between Valandil and Arvedui (there were three in between who were slain) - or it could have gone into the drink with Arvedui. It might have even passed into Cardolan or Rhudaur at the Division of Arnor (esp if one of the other sons of Earendur had it in his keeping at the time - possession probably being nine-tenths of the law even then). "Scepter of ... Annuminas" - interesting. Sort of goes with my theory that the Northern Dunedain revered Annuminas. I think the years of Arnor would definitely have been viewed as "The Glory Days" at the time of Arthedain. Witness their attempts to reclaim the other portions of Arnor when the line of Isildur died out in those kingdoms.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 04-12-2006 at 08:46 AM. |
04-12-2006, 02:51 PM | #22 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Val, great that you have re-appeared!
I agree with all your points but this one: Quote:
Apparently, the Gondoreans started to prepare the fleet in earnest only since they heard of the fall of Arnor, not when Arvedui first asked them to do that in 1973. I think Earnur didn't mind to see the pretender to his throne dead: he did nothing to prevent it . But to have the Witch-King ruling Arnor was not safe for Gondor, so Earnil decided to strike before the Witch-King could establish a strong state in place of the ailing kingdom of Athedain. And the Witch King was not a raider in Arthedain, he came to stay: Quote:
There is no mention of the Shire being destroyed: Quote:
I am sure that the Witch-King would have tried to introduce better order and proper management into Arnor. Because the management under the descendants of Isildur was pretty poor : Quote:
It is wrong, IMHO to describe the Witch-King and Sauron's intentions as purely destructive: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 04-12-2006 at 02:53 PM. |
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04-12-2006, 04:17 PM | #23 | |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
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Well, fan-fic accounts aside (I have my own ), personal opinions on this era based on the published fragments are all we have. I am of the opinion that the Witch King's purpose was to destroy the Dúnedain and any and all symbolism of their presence. I think they swept west in pursuit of the Dúnedain as fast and as far as they could. Arvedui and his men hid in the mointains while the forces of Angmar spent their strength in the winter and outran their supply lines. The King then came to the camp of the Lossoth in harsh winter weather, though this most likely covered their movement from any lingering enemies, and the spring brought the armada of Gondor and the offensive that cleared Eriador of the Angmarian armies. I always believed that the great offensive of Angmar came in the late fall/early winter of 1974 after the summer of 1974 passed.
Edit: I forgot to Answer your question. it was the past post of the 1st page and I missed it. Quote:
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04-12-2006, 05:42 PM | #24 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks for the reply, Snowdog.
Quote:
Do you really think they depended on their supply lines all the way from Angmar? Wasn't there any food etc. nearer?- in Bree, in the Shire, in the country surrounding Fornost? I think they spent the winter quite well. |
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04-13-2006, 11:44 AM | #25 |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
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Ok, if the army of Angmar spent the winter lounging around in Fornost, then why did Arvedui have to hide out in the dwarf caves and seek help from the Lossoth? They could have simply rode south and over to the Grey Havens. So I have a hard time seeing that as a scenario.
Also, moving armies require provision, be they elves, orcs, or men. Looting would have helped, but would not be able on its own to sustain an army, so yes I think they were dependent on their supply lines.
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04-15-2006, 12:23 PM | #26 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Quote:
Another question which is annoying me is whether or not Glorfindel and the army he bought from Imladris were fighting just before they left for Fornost. I may be wrong but I doubt Cirdan would have sent his forces and the Gondoreans all the way to Imladris and then to Fornost, for all they knew Imladris could have been taken as it was under seige at some point during the War.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-15-2006, 12:52 PM | #27 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I agree with TD about search parties. They wouldn't feel the need to have the whole army out in force. Just some unlucky devils out giving chase.
And... it was Angmar's forces that drove them to the abandoned Dwarf mines, but it was hunger that drove them from the mines to the Lossoth.
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04-16-2006, 10:08 AM | #28 |
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I think Angmar forces, being northerners, weathered the winter pretty well. Otherwise, the WK wouldn't have the cheek to come and meet Gondoreans in the open field.
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04-16-2006, 01:13 PM | #29 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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It may have been self confidence more than anything else. The WK's power was the strongest in the winter and Earnur would have been no match for him. I think if he had clear news of Glorfindels troops approaching he may have thought twice about it, but he may have been under the impression that Imladris was still under siege.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
04-16-2006, 06:19 PM | #30 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
Val believes it was in spring, Snowdog also, I said autumn, and you say winter! Summer, anyone? Last edited by Gordis : 04-16-2006 at 06:20 PM. |
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04-17-2006, 04:25 AM | #31 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Summer I think is definitly out of the question. Remember what the Chief of Lossoth said.
Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-17-2006, 04:33 AM | #32 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
The battle of Fornost was after that, but when? Still in spring, in summer or in autumn? By the way, the actual meeting of Glorfindel-Earnur and the WK was not near Fornost, but far to the North-East, because the WK was retreating to Carn-Dum. Yet there is no mention of snow. (And this far North the snow probably lies from mid October till mid-May) |
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