The Lord of the Rings Discussion Ch 11 and 12

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it and fear those who use it.

IMO this implies that they fear fire and would avoid it if possible.

[Elanor the Fair]

Here is a map that shows the journey from Bree to Weathertop...

Unfortunately, my map spanned two pages of my book. The dark shaded area is from the spine of the book. It was the best I could do with my scanning.

[Elanor the Fair]

This last map shows the journey from Weathertop to Rivendell. For the scale and key see the maps previously posted in the other discussion chapters. The dark line with arrows indicates the journey with the dates of each camp written next to the small triangles.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

So that’s my “summary”. There was just so much I didn’t want to leave out in my beloved chapters. Some discussion points:

Ferny’s ‘Squint-eyed companion’
Incidentally, while talking about Ferny, he calls Strider ‘Longshanks’. Why?

Doesn't he call Strider "longshanks" in reference to his long legs?? Like "Getting around on "Shanks' Pony" means walking.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?

I think he refers to intuition here - and all of the little things that lead towards it. He refers to the troubled feelings that he and the hobbits experienced. He also refers to the intuitive manner in which the wraiths tracked them along their journey - although the Ring certainly contributed to this.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?

I think this concept is opposite to the concept of Tom Bombadil "knowing the tune" for the things in his realm. Strider implies that saying the name of the Nazgul would give the Nazgul greater power, whereas Tom demonstrates that knowing the tune for something gives you power over it.

One possibility for Strider saying this is that the greatest power that the wraiths and Mordor-related things have is the power of fear. I guess you could say that be naming these things you increase the fear factor and therefore add to their strength. I'm not proposing this as the only reason, just as a possibility.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Glorfindel
He mentions to Strider that when he came across the Riders, they withdrew from him. Combined (or even individually?), wouldn’t they have the power to take on the Elf Prince? If so, why withdraw? I was thinking that for the time being they were focused on attaining the Ring and so did not bother with fighting Glorfindel

I think that Glorfindel did have the power to withstand the wraiths if they were not all together, particularly if it were in the daylight when they are not their strongest. Glorfindel does say that only those who were strong enough to ride openly against the Nine were sent out on the search for Aragorn and the hobbits.

Thanks, Linaewen, I really enjoyed reading these chapters and contemplating your discussion questions!!

[Linaewen]

Thank you Elanor, those maps are terrific! Thanks Telcontar as well . Who said that, btw?

[Edit] Oh, you posted answers too, while I was posting. Brilliant.

Posted by Elanor the Fair
One possibility for Strider saying this is that the greatest power that the wraiths and Mordor-related things have is the power of fear. I guess you could say that be naming these things you increase the fear factor and therefore add to their strength. I'm not proposing this as the only reason, just as a possibility.

Interesting, but wouldn't one think that actually naming them would in fact demonstrate a lack of fear of them? I mean, if you were scared enough of something, you might not even dare utter their name. But actually saying their name shows that you are not concerned about them; that they are equal to you.

I was wondering about Glorfindel's strength. Thanks.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn on pg 185 when Sam replies 'Maybe. It is also as good a way of saying "here we are" as I can think of bar shouting'

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?

The other possibility is that which is linked to superstition. You know how if you say something like...

"I haven't had the 'flu this winter", people will say that you shouldn't say it because it might happen as a result. People often say "Touch wood" after making a comment like this to ward off the bad omen.

So there is a strong historical background to bad omens occurring as a result of the use of words based on superstition - I don't know why!! Perhaps someone who knows about superstitions could shed light on this subject.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

The Hobbits are not entirely safe at Bree either, though. Their bedrooms, although not slept in, are ravaged and the stabled horses are gone. If I remember correctly, wasn’t there some discussion about who actually attacked, since Tolkien doesn’t explicitly state that it was Black Riders?

From the book, I always got the impression that the Black Riders were at Crickhollow at the time of the raid on the Prancing Pony. Possibly there were one or two of the Riders in the vicinity of Bree because they weren't all nine in Crickhollow. (The Witchking sure knew of to delegate.) But even if there were Riders in Bree itself, I doubt they broke in themselves but let some minions (I love that word) break in. Besides, judging by the fate of the door at Crickhollow, I doubt the Ringwraiths would have stopped at the Hobbit bedrooms when they discovered they had been fooled.

We also get a glimpse of the former might of the Men of the West, with their once magnificent structures now in ruins. Strider tells us some First Age history with the story of Lúthien and Beren.

It's those references to an ancient past that I enjoy so much. It gives you the idea of a world that isn't created just for this book but has its own long history with many tales still untold.

The power of the Ring is made evident by Frodo’s inability to resist putting it on. When he strikes at the Rider’s foot, he cries ‘O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!’. What makes him say those certain words?

Perhaps an unconcious memory of Gildor and his people. They were singing that song when they scared off the Black Rider.

Then another lightening moment comes when the hobbits stumble across some trolls. The image of Strider poking a troll (a stone one or not) is hilarious. The atmosphere of tension and fear is lessened with the reminder of Bilbo’s own adventure.

I agree, this was such a fun part. It wasn't Pippin alone who had forgotten Bilbo's tale, I hadn't expected the trolls to be those from 'the Hobbit' either.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

But that's a great part, where the Moon is just starting to climb over the lip of the dell, and they spot a silhouetted rider *Gaffer changes his trousers*

I only found out how scary that scene actually was during this re-read. I put the book down and built up the scene in my mind. Tolkien definately didn't need a misty ruin to make the attack scary.

Clearly, Tolkien was much moved by walking by moonlight. It was one of the things that connected me with his writing right from the start.

Yes, I noticed that too. Frodo, Pippin and Sam start out from Hobbiton in the dark, in Rivendell they leave at sunset too I believe. I always wondered why. The few times I walked in nighttime I kept tripping over anything I could find! Including my own feet. I suppose in the books the cover of night plays a role in the decision, but isn't daylight normally considered a better time for travel?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

I think that Glorfindel did have the power to withstand the wraiths if they were not all together, particularly if it were in the daylight when they are not their strongest. Glorfindel does say that only those who were strong enough to ride openly against the Nine were sent out on the search for Aragorn and the hobbits.

I think so too. Glorfindel must have been quite confident with his own powers. He was riding openly on the road, on a horse richly decorated, and with jingling bells! It is more likely that the Nazgul would try to avoid him, than the other way around.

[Beren3000]

I have a question that I've always wondered about whenever I read Flight to the Ford.
The flood at the ford killed the horses of the Nazgûl, but why did that hinder their attack? Sure they feared water, but they could apparently overcome their fear enough to make their horses cross the river. Why then would the flood make them turn back? Could they be physically hindered by the rush of water? What are your opinions on this?

[Lefty Scaevola]

They are invisible, and they (or perhaps only Angmar) resistant to permenant injury from some weapons, but they are yet to some extent coporeal and subject to physical forces, such as the flood, and they interact with ordinary matter, wearing clothes, riding horses, weildding baldes, they were swept away by the flood.

[The Gaffer]

Good question, and one which I think JRRT left to our imaginations. I agree with Lefty.

The only clue I can recall is that Merry's blade broke "the spell that knit his undead sinews to his will", which implies that the "body" of a nazgul is held together by a magical force. There's no reason why that body wouldn't be, as a whole, subject to a great force like the river.

Maybe that's why they feared to cross rivers: an unrelenting physical force that couldn't be countered by their will.

[Beren3000]

Thanks for your answers, I feel enlightened !
However, Gaffer, I have my own theory as to why they feared water but it's too religious and I'd hate to force it on other people

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No come on Beren, lets hear what you got. If everyone said that then no one would post anything.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I have my own theory as to why they feared water but it's too religious and I'd hate to force it on other people

i'd like to hear it too... i suppose one could contribute it in part to the valar... i remember a passage from the silmarillion concerning melkor's inability to coerce any water-ainur to his side, and something about a subsequent dread of water by him and all his servants... it seemed to be one of the few elements of middle-earth that he was unable to extend his influence upon

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

it seemed to be one of the few elements of middle-earth that he was unable to extend his influence upon

Then that seems to confirm my theory. You see, in the Bible water was often used as a symbol for the Holy Spirit (it is used in baptism for that reason). So it's only logical that minions of the Dark fear it. Not so much of a theory, but a thought after all.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Then that seems to confirm my theory. You see, in the Bible water was often used as a symbol for the Holy Spirit (it is used in baptism for that reason). So it's only logical that minions of the Dark fear it. Not so much of a theory, but a thought after all.

It's also a domain of Ulmo, a Vala, who did not have any compassion towards the Black forces.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And Ulmo wasn't deceived by Morgoth Saurons master so all the more reason to hate it.

[Beren3000]

Yeah, that's a valid explanation, too. But I'm sticking to my theory.

[Artanis]

Tolkien was a dedicated Christian, so it's only reasonable that he used elements from the Bible in his writings. I'd guess it is not a mere coincidence that he let Ulmo be the Lord of Waters and also the one of the Valar who were always in opposition to the dark forces in Arda and never ceased to work against them.