04-16-2002, 05:27 AM | #21 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 192
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Quote:
So nothing was pure. Only shades of gray. |
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04-16-2002, 11:22 AM | #22 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Bah- youse is going around it da wrong way...
Arda is a different metaphysical realm than reality. All you need do is define Eru as "absolute good". Once you have arbitrarily done that, you can define anything in direct opposition to Eru as "absolute evil". You can define Eru as such, because it IS a different metaphysical realm.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-16-2002, 05:24 PM | #23 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville, IL
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That's the really cheap way to do it. It's fine, jsut really cheap. If you do decide to do that, you will need to spend a LOT of time explaining Eru then, his motivations, his 'personality'
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04-17-2002, 12:25 AM | #24 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Right after someone explains 'ow you can have moral relativity in a cosmos with a defined creator.
Relativism denies the existence of absolute good and evil. In a universe with a definate creator, the existence of absolute good is a given, though it may not be what you might define as "Good".
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-17-2002, 09:49 AM | #25 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 192
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So if Eru would massacre entire elf race becouse of what Fëanor did, would he still be ultimate Good? Ofcourse he didn't, but in different universe he could had.
. I go even farther than relativism. I say, that Good and Evil aren't subjective. They're outright nonexistant. They're just things humans made up to feel the universe a little bit more organised. Ofcourse, in reality universe is place of constant chaos. Good and Evil have no place in there, where planets collide, galaxies crash and millions of assumed civilisations die every day. |
04-17-2002, 10:34 AM | #26 |
Padawan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Barony of Carolingia
Posts: 2,176
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i thought it was Aleister Crowley?
whooo...this is deep people, i'm over my head. *slowly backing out of this thread that she naively wandered into* enjoy your discussions people, i probably would if i could comprehend more than 2/3 of it! oh, and praps Tom Shippey's book "J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century" can help.
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There are only four questions of value in life: What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same: ONLY LOVE. Dance as though nobody's watching. Sing as though nobody's listening. Dream as though you'll live forever. Live as though you'll die tomorrow. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO and proud! FRODO LIVES!!!!! |
04-17-2002, 10:35 AM | #27 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
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I'm afraid you are mixing up your universes there.
Arda is a tad different from this one. You can go ahead and say things like good and evil are just human constructs in this reality. However, the same cannot be said about Arda, since it's recorded that Eru created everything, including the metaphysical system. Even down to constructs like time, and death. It's not that difficult a concept, if you want a difficult concept, tell me if/why free will exists in Arda. Well it has to, since Melkor rebeled. So why did Eru create creatures with free will if he knew it was going to lead to rebellion and thus "evil"? Assuming he's also omniscient... I think he has been described in general terms thereof.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-17-2002, 05:07 PM | #28 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville, IL
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Because there can be no good without evil, or at least it is very hard to have good as a concept with nothing to compare it to, and so there must be some evil and imperfection in the world.
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04-17-2002, 05:47 PM | #29 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
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Ahhh- but that's the crux of the problem.
If Eru designed his unverse to include freewill, and therefore evil as a necessary componant for expression of free will, and to display a contrast to good, then evil is also his creation. It's the old evil is an illusion argument, which is my personal opinion. If it all reflecs to his greater glory, then 'ow can it be evil? So I insist that you forthwith stop your persecution of orcs, as they are obviously carrying out Eru's will, and you are interfering with such, and are therefore evil! Evil I tell you!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-17-2002, 05:51 PM | #30 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
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Quote:
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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04-18-2002, 12:22 PM | #31 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Would the story of Ea had made any sense to us if discord had not arose? And even if it was comprehensible would it have been interesting? We wonders... We wonders... Melkor, evil or not, was certainly critical to the story.
Just because the Vala don't record whether Eru had peers doesn't mean that he didn't have any. Perhaps at the end of days everybody gets to meet Eru's mom and dad? |
04-18-2002, 02:31 PM | #32 | |
Elf Lord
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Location: Darkness
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Quote:
Melkor did not concieve evil in the void. He had an original thought. The very first original thought that ever existed probably. The fact that it contradicted the will of his creator was of a secondary consequence, and dictated by the laws of the universe.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-18-2002, 05:45 PM | #33 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville, IL
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See, we all knew that original thought was dangerous. And Blackheart, I never said that I wasn't evil.... although that might mean that I am just intelligent.... and if you aren't evil...
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04-18-2002, 06:22 PM | #34 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Xandre! What are you doing here?
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
04-18-2002, 06:22 PM | #35 |
The Insufferable
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Xandre! What are you doing here?
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
04-18-2002, 06:28 PM | #36 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Hehe. Skulking, and causing trouble
I've been spotted! time to go to plan B! *Snaga speaks* Whutz plan B boss? - You stand here and throw things at them while I sneak up behind them wif a big stick!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-18-2002, 07:17 PM | #37 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
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In any case, it's a pleasure to see you, my good friend.
No chance of me going soft with the likes of you around... ]: )
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
04-19-2002, 02:56 AM | #38 |
Elf Lord
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Ahhh. So m spose to keep dem on dere toes eh?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-19-2002, 04:22 PM | #39 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville, IL
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I thought the proper phrase was "hang them by their toes"
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04-19-2002, 10:28 PM | #40 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: On Viggo's Chin
Posts: 77
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Pippin is evil, evil I tell you! Nobody could be that silly in Moria, he must have been an agent of Sauron from the git-go.
I wish Aragorn could have been more corruptable, I would have liked to see him in a triangle with Arwen and Eowyn (woohoo). That's my silly 2c.
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