03-16-2008, 11:00 PM | #21 | |
Elf Lord
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This is what I'm saying, guys. HSLDA loves this 'sky is falling" business. It sells memberships and increases donations. But they don't represent 'everyone' (look at this list of omitted groups, for example http://hsislegal.com/associations.asp) There's a ruling, yes. But the Governor, the State School Superintendent, and members of the state legislature, as well as several home-schooling groups
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Switch to decaf, guys.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-16-2008, 11:28 PM | #22 | ||||
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Switch to decaf!? Ne-vair!!
Lief, homeschooling is indeed not illegal since this is a ruling, not a law. I'm not discounting your annoyance at the matter, but this is less bad than if homeschooling were actually banned. Quote:
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Or is this too much to expect from someone who is getting ready to possibly brutalise the public education system? Of course, this wouldn't actually require him to give anyone money, so maybe he would find it more palatable. He is in a tough spot with the budget right now. "Credentialed teacher" implies that he will keep the expensive (how expensive?) credential requirement in place.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-17-2008, 01:04 AM | #23 |
Elf Lord
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Here's a link to the actual ruling.
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions...ts/B192878.PDF In a nutshell, the law being referenced is the compulsory attendance law. There is one in every state. In most states, including California, the law specifically exempts people enroled in private schools. In many states, including California, "home-schoolers' have the option to register as "private schools". Since private school teachers are usually not required to be certified through the same process as most public school teachers, that expectation is usually applied to home-school teachers who have been registered in that way. In this case, specifically, the family claimed to be under the supervision of another 'school", but the court saw no real interaction between the family and the umbrella school. Essentially, it concluded the school was fraudulant in representing itself as the certifying organization, and said the mother was not a reasonable substitute for a skilled teacher. You can see at the top that the parents didn't even appear for this court date. One of the objections (generally) to the certification process is that it may exclude skilled teachers. For example, you may have a Doctorate Degree in Chemistry, but without a certain amount of coursework and continuing ed in "education" you would not be eligible, in some jurisdictions to teach Middle School chemistry. You could be a college professor, but not teach 7th graders. It is regulations like that that make certification expensive, because it would apply (depending on the age group) to many subjects. However, it hasn't been necessary, so far. I, personally, believe that the family HAS fraudulently represented itself as homeschooling to engage in extra control over children who called the civil authorities for aid, and i darn well believe they're entitled to that aid. But I've always been a radical on the subject of children's rights. I think those are "inalienable", too.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
03-17-2008, 02:09 AM | #24 | |||
Elf Lord
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sis, I said right from my first post that this is being vigorously contested. Your point about the number of people fighting it only supports what I've been saying. It refutes nothing.
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And signing the petition I linked will help to fight it . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-17-2008, 02:13 AM | #25 | |||
Magnificent Master of Buckland
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I'll reply to other posts later, etc. In case any of you don't know, I'm homeschooled, so this ruling personally affected me... and creeped me out. Yes, the ruling suggested that homeschooling shouldn't be allowed, it's not law, blah, blah, blah. But just the fact that the ruling was made is disturbing. Sis: Being a homeschool organization, why shouldn't HSLDA be all over this? Why can't it be Christian? And please support your claim that HSLDA is exclusively for Christians. I'd like to know your side. Quote from About HSLDA Quote:
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Lief already posted the first one, but it seems to need to be reposted.
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But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer |
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03-17-2008, 05:47 AM | #26 |
Elf Lord
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Interesting debate. Some observations:
1) When comparing home-schooled performance stats with public-schooled, you are not comparing like with like. The sample who are home-schooled benefit from one-to-one tuition and a highly motivated, education-oriented home environment: i.e. both the sample and the methods are different in important ways that would skew the results. All the evidence shows that your home environment is a very strong predictor of educational performance in the state school sector. 2) Having a PhD in Chemistry doesn't qualify you to teach chemistry, let alone History, or anything else. Not to say you CAN'T teach it, just to say that I know lots of PhDs who are pants teachers. 3) Did I see a move to have the judge's ruling deleted or struck from the record? Now, we don't have a constitution here, but one thing that does get people in a lather is when people try to edit judges' interpretations of the law. In fact, no-one would even dare try. They might moan and complain about it, and they might change the law because of it, but it wouldn't even be contemplated to change the record. That's Ministry of Truth stuff (unless I've read it wrong), and a suprisingly illiberal move from supposed defenders of liberty. 4) It strikes me that there might be a minority of "bad apples" who just don't send their kids to school because they can't be arsed, or who claim "homeschooling" but do it spectacularly badly. Do we not have a social contract in which we pay taxes so that the state can protect our rights? That would, presumably, include some means of telling when a child's prospects are being ruined by delinquent parents. In which case, there needs to be some form of regulation or inspection, and there has to be some legal recourse for the state when a child is detected as being neglected. |
03-17-2008, 09:31 PM | #27 | |||||
Elf Lord
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I just can't resist gloating here . I feel very, very proud of the homeschool movement. And it feels good to hear you compliment it . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-18-2008, 05:04 PM | #28 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Any averages of homeschooling vs. public schooling are too skewed by self-selection to be representative of anything.
The most important aspect of education is parents who care about their child's education. By definition, 95% of the homeschooled have parents that care about their child's education. By comparison, public schools reflect the entire population: some children have parents who care a lot about their child's education; some who are somewhat concerned, but not that involved; some who hardly care at all. Thus, the average of the first group is always going to be higher, not because homeschooling is better, but because the entire populace is only made up of a selective part of the total population. If they didn't do substantially better, I'd be real worried. For those that disparage public school, remember that there are millions of children that graduate from public schools every year and go on to extremely successful careers. My guess is that these children had parents who cared. My own four children go to public school. My wife could homeschool them (she's a certified teacher), but she prefers for them to have the other experiences public school brings. And we're still around each day after school to fill in the blanks and help them along when needed. Not to mention all the education they received from us in the first five years of their lives. The question: How do we help kids who's parents don't care (or aren't particularly educated themselves)? Public school is really the only option, and working to make it better is better for everyone. Homeschooling is fine, as long as those who want to do it do it well, but it does not work for every child.
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03-18-2008, 05:27 PM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
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There are ways to balance the self-selection in homeschoolers. But if you actually know homeschoolers, they aren't necessary. You assert that they're more involved, but you can bring no evidence to prove that. Among the parents I know you could not determine, statistically, or based on the outcome of their children at 20, which homeschooled, public schooled, or private schooled. There are successes and failures under every system. The issue is not whether homeschooling works for everyone. Only an idiot would assert that, and no idiots have done so, here. The issue, from a public policy POV, is whether compulsory public education works for everyone. And it doesn't. So the SECOND issue is, can compulsory public education, extended in some way, be the only, best, or most effective solution to the problem of families that ARE at risk? And I say, "The evidence is that it won't solve the problems of ALL of those children, and might not solve the problems of even a majority of them." Yet, in pursuit of this goal you're willing to sacrifice the civil liberties of the entire population. I find that astounding. It's exactly what people who oppose the war in Iraq complain about there. It's the same thing that causes people to join Amnesty International. And yet, you seem to see no...IRONY in suggesting that every minor citizen of the country must lose ALL the important liberties that are the basis of the federal Constitution on the off chance that such a system will result in aid for children whose parents (you assert, and that's another issue) don't care about them. It's not the only option. It's OBVIOUSLY, INSANELY, EXTREMELY, OUTRAGEOUSLY, and DEMONSTRABLY not the only option.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-18-2008, 07:01 PM | #30 | |
Elf Lord
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Who is arguing in favour of banning anything?
Lief, you've completely misunderstood me; bj's post summarised it. Oh, but I loved how it's not censoring the judiciary but merely having his judgment "depublished". Winston Smith would be proud. There was some recent research here which showed that children from "good" educational backgrounds fared as well in a "bad" school as they did in a "good" one. The main difference was that where you take the "good" background kids out of the "bad" schools, they got worse. So by opting out of the public schools system, these "good" parents make the public schools worse. Selfish? Quote:
I'm personally not arguing in favour of any ban. However, I don't think people should be encouraged to do it as I think it would be bad for society as a whole. |
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03-18-2008, 07:24 PM | #31 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
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__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
03-18-2008, 07:26 PM | #32 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Why? What do you think the public policy issue is?
Here, let's try another analogy. You look at a graph which shows a rise in sexual crimes by men. What is your response? If you say, 'Castrate men, and see if that helps.' you have made a case consistant with extending compulsory education. One of the difficulties is that people like to use education as both carrot and stick for adjusting other social ills. This is my suggestion. Provide educational opportunities, for free. Make them great and make them relevant. Let anyone who can benefit from them walk in and do it. Set the police and social service system to helping people who need help, (and there are a lot of them). Who doesn't want a civilization with access to education? People swim under barbed wire to get that! But it's become the school system that serves so many other functions... babysitting services in a world with lousy childcare, healthcare access in a world with no insurance or health system, social engineering experiments. Let's open schools like good libraries and let people use them. It works in places with open access post secondary education, and it would free up teachers, doctors, policemen... everyone, to do what they do WELL.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 03-18-2008 at 07:43 PM. |
03-18-2008, 10:35 PM | #33 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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There are a lot of factors contributing to the greater success of homeschoolers. But what parents do in homeschooling is certainly anything but selfish. Their students' presence in public schools might make the schools score better overall, but it wouldn't help their kids to do any better. They'd probably, if there is any difference, do worse. And the family relationships that develop in our families are also wonderful . Plus the moral training, whereas otherwise they could be messed with by the false ideologies that are commonly found in public schools. *Shakes head.* I really see no positive things to them being in public school, and only negative results. The only positive thing is that it might make public schools look better, but their public image matters less to me than does the upbringing of kids. Besides, I doubt that the research your quoting is correct. I've heard from professors and students about an atmosphere of "who cares?" that exists about school work in public schools. When kids spend a very large segment of their lives surrounded by peers, those peers have a heavy influence on their views. Often more than do parents. Therefore the environment there can influence kids to care less about their education. Especially when that's combined with an education system that is dubbing down its quality so that it can reach less knowledgeable students. My neighbors went through public school, and they were bored stiff until they got out of it. Now they're racing through college at an incredible pace, succeeding in everything they touch and very excited.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-18-2008, 11:32 PM | #34 | |
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 03-19-2008 at 01:18 AM. |
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03-19-2008, 01:14 AM | #35 | |||
Magnificent Master of Buckland
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Example: I used to go to private school. My teachers (mostly my evil 4th grade one) got mad at me if I didn't get something. No "here's how you do it." Very frustrating. Homeschooling is awesome. That's that.
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But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer |
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03-19-2008, 04:57 AM | #36 | |
Elf Lord
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The problem is, in real life, the more people who opt out of the state-funded sector, the worse it gets. Sorry, I was being a bit naughty with the selfish remark. But it is a classic "what's good for the individual vs what's good for society" issue. |
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03-19-2008, 09:24 AM | #37 | ||
Elf Lord
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What's good for society is an educated population. If the population is doing that in their own time, why is that bad? Homeschoolers still pay taxes to support schools. Some of them teach in schools. Some of them volunteer in schools. Some of them send some kids to schools, and keep some home...that's quite common, actually. Homeschooling is not a threat to public schools. Incompetence within them is.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-19-2008, 01:27 PM | #38 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
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I'll ask you pro-homeschoolers a few questions, averages aside:
Is it possible to get a very good education via public school? Is it possible to get a very good education via private school? Is it possible to get a very good education via a homeschooling? BTW ~ On some of the other points mentioned above. The public school system in my town has relatively low class sizes (20 students or less, mandated by law). It also has all kinds of advance placement education for students that excel starting in first grade, and one-on-one tutoring for children that have a hard time keeping up. More importantly, I have three kids who have been going to it, and one more who will be, and they are very smart, polite, and well-behaved. Simply put, I wouldn't even consider sending my kids to the schools if they weren't good. As I said, my wife is more than qualified to homeschool, and we even have the money to send them to private school if we wanted to. As to what they get from going to public school? A connection to the society that they will become a part of. All the society. Not just the smart kids, the nice kids, the rich kids. They also get to meet the less fortunate, the kids with bad parents, the kids with behavioral issues, the kids with mental issues. What's good for a society is a society of people that experience and understand one another, as opposed to one where each group spends their entire life in their own little social construct. If you don't get that when you are young, you never get it at all.
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03-19-2008, 02:09 PM | #39 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-19-2008, 04:25 PM | #40 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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I went to grammer school in New York City in the early seventies. It wasn't great, it also wasn't terrible, but it was a hell of a lot better than the alternative. Both my parents worked so we could have a home. If not for public school, where would I have been? Quote:
I respect all the posters here, but even just reading this thread, and others, it's easy to see a kind of elitism and misperception that develops among the people here who are homeschooled. I expected you to answer yes to all three questions (were you homeschooled? ), but there are others here who I think truely believe that you can't get a good education from a public school, and that it's some evil place full of evil teachers and evil children. And, if they never experience it, they will hold on to that opinion for the rest of their lives. It will color the way they view the rest of the world. It's almost a religious vigor about homeschooling. Outside of the most extreme of situations like the inner city, people should give public school a chance. And, if more is needed, there's still plenty of time in the day for parent's to augment their child's education. Spending a majority of all your formative years with only your parents and siblings is just too much.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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