The Hunt for the Ring

[Alcuin]

E was the catcher; Khamûl was the batter. The hounds to the hunters: he hoped he was driving the prey toward E, and he was making him aware of it. As far as Khamûl and E knew, the only way out was by the bridge, and they had the Ringbearer trapped between the hills and the river. Khamûl just missed Frodo at Maggot’s farm: he’d found his way into the lower lands in the floodplain and ridden across Maggot’s fields.

Come to think of it, when Khamûl followed Frodo to the Ferry, he was probably following him from Maggot’s farm: he must have thought that the Ringbearer would be caught by him and E at some lonely spot along the road that ran along the river. By taking the Ferry, Frodo and his friends might have just avoided a trap.

[Gordis]

In fact, first Khamul met E, then they both visited Maggot. Sure, Maggot saw only Khamul, but E must have been just round the corner:

As soon as the Elves depart [Khamûl D] renews his hunt, and reaching the ridge above Woodhall is aware that the Ring has been there. Failing to find the Bearer and feeling that he is drawing away, he summons [E] by cries. [He D] is aware of the general direction that the Ring has taken, but not knowing of Frodo's rest in the wood, and believing him to have made straight eastwards, he and [ E] ride over the fields. They visit Maggot while Frodo is still under the trees. [Khamûl D] then makes a mistake (probably because he imagines the Ringbearer as some mighty man, strong and swift): he does not look near the farm, but sends [his companion E] down Causeway towards Overbourn, while he goes north along it towards the Bridge. They tryst to return and meet one another at night; but do so just too late. Frodo crosses by ferry just before [Khamûl D] arrives. [His companion E] joins him soon after.-RC p.116

Here is the problem: the nazgul are not yet aware how slow and lazy the hobbits are, how they stop for meals 6 times a day, how they spend 3 hours breakfasting while they should have been running. They can't figure out why the prey suddenly starts to sing at the top of their voices...

Hobbits, rabbits - enough to drive a decent nazgul nuts.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Hobbits, rabbits - enough to drive a decent nazgul nuts.

There you go: Khamûl’s problem is that what he needed was a lucky hobbit’s foot.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

There you go: Khamûl’s problem is that what he needed was a lucky hobbit’s foot.

BTW, Gordis, such a meticulous research, but the "alphabet" is confusing. Maybe we should stick to Frik, Frak and so on?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Ringwraith Expeditionary Force almost captured Frodo. Before Frodo got to the other side of the Baranduin, he had five near-missed with Khamûl: at Bag End, near Woody End in the evening, below Woody End the next morning, near Maggot’s farm, and at the Ferry: had it not been for the Ferry, about which the Nazgûl were clueless until Khamûl followed him there, he’d have been caught. Once he got to the other side, he was literally off their map.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Nice summary. So, do the nazgul get A for the actions in the Shire? (Not A+ for the missing of the Ferry).

I just think A is out of the question By failing to accomplish their mission in the Shire, namely the capture of the ring, they can't get top grade then can they

It is telling how many times they had near-misses. Not one, not two, not three, not four, but five.
I would say one is unfortunate, two perhaps also so.. three becomes a worrying tendency, four and five are a clear pattern.

The Nazgûl get a C for their hunt in the Shire:

- They don't get a lower grade because they did in fact locate Bag End and managed to pick up on that the Ring-bearer had in fact left journeying. That merits a mediocre grade. The Nazgûl must then show that they can perform the next step in their task, closing in on their prey before the trail cools.

- An A they simply can't get because they never confronted nor came close to getting a hold of the ring. The ring-bearer never felt threathened to the point of peril.

- Neither did they show the competence nor efficiency that a B could warrant. During the time that the hobbits were with the Elves near Woody End the Nazgûl had an entire night to scramble as many as they could possibly muster to cover the terrain in the immediate vicinity. They had both the time and the nocturnal vision to map out the terrain, and should then have learned of the rugged, down-sloping terrain after Woody End that proved hard for one of Nazgûl to pass through on horseback. This they would have to make amends for, but they didn't.

Had the Nazgûl been competent in their hunt they would have anticipated the next move. Contrary to this approach, the Nazgûl were yet again on the backfoot after the hobbits had left Woody End, not nearly as hot on the trail as they should have been. They had a clear tactical advantage to benefit from the delay of the ring-bearer's journey, but did not take it. Failing to ambush the hobbits between Woody End and Farmer Maggots farm is, I argue, clearly incompetence.

The Nazgûl did not capture the ring-bearer between Bag End and Crickhollow. Not only did they fail to confront the ring-bearer, they also lost the trail on numerous occasions, the consequences being that they did not catch up on the trail again until Bree. That fellow Mooters, simply isn't good enough

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

During the time that the hobbits were with the Elves near Woody End the Nazgûl had an entire night to scramble as many as they could possibly muster to cover the terrain in the immediate vicinity. They had both the time and the nocturnal vision to map out the terrain, and should then have learned of the rugged, down-sloping terrain after Woody End that proved hard for one of Nazgûl to pass through on horseback. This they would have to make amends for, but they didn't.

That is a good point. What would the defence say?
I guess this night Khamul was in dismay, feeling that the Hunt had already failed. The Hobbits had just met a whole company of Calaquendi Elves and were now travelling with them. They could go unhindered any way now - to the Havens or to Rivendell, like a flagship passing in majesty through a small fleet of boats. What would G be able to do to stop the Elves from crossing the Bridge he was guarding? - nothing. What would all the five nazgul in the Shire be able to do against Gildor's Elves? Nothing. Why bother to assemble the others?

Who would have thought that the Elves were not going to help the Hobbits with the Ring, that they would abandon them in the morning?

Only in the late morning, after having examined the campsite of the Elves on the ridge above Woodhall, Khamul understood that the Ring and the Elves had parted company. The ring-smell and the Elf-smell were coming from different directions. Maybe a less ring-sensitive nazgul than Khamul wouldn't have been able to understand even that. Likely ours Frick and Frack would have lost the Ring at this point altogether.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Had the Nazgûl been competent in their hunt they would have anticipated the next move.

They couldn't have : the hobbits were going to the Ferry, and the nazgul had no idea it existed. They thought the hobbits would have to turn either South to Sarn Ford, or North to the Bridge. Both those roads they have explored.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Contrary to this approach, the Nazgûl were yet again on the backfoot after the hobbits had left Woody End, not nearly as hot on the trail as they should have been. They had a clear tactical advantage to benefit from the delay of the ring-bearer's journey, but did not take it. Failing to ambush the hobbits between Woody End and Farmer Maggots farm is, I argue, clearly incompetence.

Unfortunately they were not aware of the delays and how slow the hobbits generally moved. Thus, unknowing of it, they were ahead.
Khamul came to question Maggot before the hobbits came there. Seemingly Khamul could tell that Maggot was not lying to him, so he believed that the Ring had bypassed the farm.

Anyway, Khamul asked Maggot to watch for Baggins and tell him if the latter comes. Maggot had an opportunity to earn a hefty sum of Mordor gold. Bill Ferny in his place wouldn't have hesitated a second.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The Nazgûl did not capture the ring-bearer between Bag End and Crickhollow. Not only did they fail to confront the ring-bearer, they also lost the trail on numerous occasions, the consequences being that they did not catch up on the trail again until Bree. That fellow Mooters, simply isn't good enough

Well maybe B, not A, but C is a stretch!

The principal fault was that of Isengard spies: they missed the Ferry and didn't map it. Then there were Elves...

[Earniel]

The side-discussion has been moved to its own thread: Ability to Communicate with The One Ring

Sorry if I kept you waiting but I'm not usually around to do mod-work at 7AM on a Sunday.

[Gordis]

Thank you, Earniel!

Does anybody want to say more about the first episode of the Hunt - 5 nazgul in the Shire (until the escape of the hobbits by the Ferry)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Does anybody want to say more about the first episode of the Hunt - 5 nazgul in the Shire (until the escape of the hobbits by the Ferry)?

Perhaps just the note that I would not have had any problems with giving the Nazgul an A, or, all right, B at most. I think they did pretty well.

There was also one thing I wanted to point out, and that was that they were still incredibly lucky. Khamul was actually really lucky to pick, of all possibilities, the road which the Ring took - the one through Greenhill country, which was, like somebody mentioned on this thread, leading to a blind end! It was by no means any important road, it lead through the wildest part of the Shire (except for the borderlands). Really lucky he was.

But yes, that may be about it; let's move on!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

There was also one thing I wanted to point out, and that was that they were still incredibly lucky. Khamul was actually really lucky to pick, of all possibilities, the road which the Ring took - the one through Greenhill country, which was, like somebody mentioned on this thread, leading to a blind end! It was by no means any important road, it lead through the wildest part of the Shire (except for the borderlands). Really lucky he was.

I guess he was following the "Ring-smell", at least at night. In RC it is said that Khamul was "drawn by the Ring"


Let us indeed move on.

So, late at night on September 25-26 Khamul's group of five nazgul DEGHI assemble by the Brandywine bridge. It was easy to do: I had just finished his round trip through the Northfarthing, H came to the Bridge following the Great Road from West to East, D and E met each other at the Ferry, minutes later than necessary, and went together to the Bridge. G had been guarding the Bridge for 2 days already.

Here I have some questions:
1. Were there any Rangers guarding this entrance to the Shire? Normally there should have been, if we consider that there was a strong guard of Rangers at the Sarn-Ford entrance. Why not guard also this one? Yet there is no mention of Rangers at the Bridge of Strongbows.

2. Was G letting the traffic over the Bridge to continue unhindered? There could have been some Hobbits going to and from Buckland, as well as Dwarves etc. travelling along the Road. Or was the Bridge deserted?

3. We know that some Elves of Gildor were likely to cross the Bridge on their way to Bree and Rivendell. Or did they cross by Ferry, visit Tom and go to Bree?

Did they go check on the Rangers of Sarn-Ford first, once they learned that nazgul had somehow gotten into the Shire? Did they tell Aragorn about the fate of his Rangers? Note that in the drafts in HOME 7 (and only in the drafts) there is an Entry for Sept 25: "Strider hears ill news from Elves." Was it about hobbits or about Sarn Ford?
Was there enough time for an Elf to start from Woody End in early hours of Sept. 25, go to Sarn-Ford, go to Bree and come there the same day? Impossible I think, it would be more than 200 miles...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

1. Were there any Rangers guarding this entrance to the Shire? Normally there should have been, if we consider that there was a strong guard of Rangers at the Sarn-Ford entrance. Why not guard also this one? Yet there is no mention of Rangers at the Bridge of Strongbows.

You mean, Stonebows Strongbow was Beleg.

But it is an interesting question. One might be that there were enough Hobbit guards by the bridge ("enough", certainly by hobbits' measures, and, well, in that case - where would the Rangers stay? The hobbits won't certainly feel comfortable if they knew a band of Big Folk - Strider-like weird men from wilderness, dangerous no doubt - was camping around their borders, so the Rangers would have to stay far away enough, so if there were any in the East, they were likely not in the close proximity to the Bridge), Buckland was guarded by a gate, and the entrance to the Shire was possible only via the bridge. Remember there were some guards (hobbits) by the bridge - that was explicitely said in LotR. (Far later, Sharkey's men built a gate even by the bridge.)

The situation at Sarn Ford was different, there the border of the Shire was scarcely guarded, there (seemingly) existed not as large, if any, settlement as by the Bridge, so the Shire was far more vulnerable for attack from there; also, the Rangers could work there "undisturbed" by the Shiriffs ("Hey, Big Man, what are you doing here?" "Erm... well, in fact, I was..." "Don't try anything on me! You are under arrest!").

2. Was G letting the traffic over the Bridge to continue unhindered? There could have been some Hobbits going to and from Buckland, as well as Dwarves etc. travelling along the Road. Or was the Bridge deserted?

I guess there are two options. Either nobody passed during the days, which is technically possible, but one would have expected at least some Hobbits heading for Buckland; or the Nazgul was in some way "checking" - now it would be interesting to know how, and he would also have to be pretty skilled for that, to be able to say for sure that the Ringbearer did not get past him. His job was quite a responsible one.

3. We know that some Elves of Gildor were likely to cross the Bridge on their way to Bree and Rivendell. Or did they cross by Ferry, visit Tom and go to Bree?

And did they go to Rivendell? I don't have the proper material with me now, but could it not have been that they left for the Towers later? Just checking. In either case, I think it would have been no problem for them to use the Ferry, or who knows, perhaps use some of their own hidden boats or something to cross Brandywine. Certainly, they would prefer to pass unnoticed, not going by the middle of the Great Road so that all hobbits would gasp at them. However, at night, a Nazgul would have noticed them more likely than not; even if the Hobbit guards were overcome by sleep or for some other reason didn't notice them. So, I think the Ferry or another, own means of transport are likely.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You mean, Stonebows Strongbow was Beleg.

But it is an interesting question. One might be that there were enough Hobbit guards by the bridge ("enough", certainly by hobbits' measures, and, well, in that case - where would the Rangers stay? The hobbits won't certainly feel comfortable if they knew a band of Big Folk - Strider-like weird men from wilderness, dangerous no doubt - was camping around their borders, so the Rangers would have to stay far away enough, so if there were any in the East, they were likely not in the close proximity to the Bridge), Buckland was guarded by a gate, and the entrance to the Shire was possible only via the bridge. Remember there were some guards (hobbits) by the bridge - that was explicitely said in LotR. (Far later, Sharkey's men built a gate even by the bridge.)

Stonebows- sure . Funny name, BTW, if you think on it. Was it a reference to the shape of the bridge's arches?

About the hobbit guards at the Bridge. I haven't found where it was explicitly said in LotR that there were any guards prior to the coming of the ruffians. The guards at Hay Gate to Buckland - yes, but not the Bridge.
What I found in the "Scouring" chapter was the mention of the existence of the Bridge Inn on the west bank, if that is somehow relevant.

Also see this quote (A Conspiracy Unmasked) depicting security at Hay Gate:

‘But what about the Black Riders?' said Frodo. 'Would it be safe to wait one day for Gandalf?’

‘That all depends on what you think the Riders would do, if they found you here,’ answered Merry. ‘They could have reached here by now, of course, if they were not stopped at the North-gate, where the Hedge runs down to the river-bank, just this side of the Bridge. The gate-guards would not let them through by night, though they might break through. Even in the daylight they would try to keep them out, I think, at any rate until they got a message through to the Master of the Hall - for they would not like the look of the Riders, and would certainly be frightened by them. But, of course, Buckland cannot resist a determined attack for long. And it is possible that in the morning even a Black Rider that rode up and asked for Mr. Baggins would be let through. It is pretty generally known that you are coming back to live at Crickhollow.’

You see there is only mention of the guards of Buckland at Hay-Gate, but not on the Bridge.

About the rangers: I don't think there were no sheltered camping places close to the Bridge - after all, the nazgul G did stay there for 3 days unobserved and he must have kept his horse grazing nearby. The horse was not something he could make invisible and it was a very distinctive animal, not some hobbit pony. (Hmm... could someone try to steal a nazgul horse?)

But indeed, the post of rangers could have been further east, if not based in Bree itself. I think it was the case - everyone coming to the Shire from the east would most likely pass through Bree anyway.

Originally Posted by Legate

I guess there are two options. Either nobody passed during the days, which is technically possible, but one would have expected at least some Hobbits heading for Buckland; or the Nazgul was in some way "checking" - now it would be interesting to know how, and he would also have to be pretty skilled for that, to be able to say for sure that the Ringbearer did not get past him. His job was quite a responsible one.

I agree. If there was a "Ping" command, now was the time for G to use it. He must have been rather ring-sensitive, this G - a competent nazgul in many ways, working alone. He also had to avoid causing unnecessary fear around the Bridge to avoid panic. Likely he chose his observation post as far away from the Buckland guards and from the Bridge Inn as possible.

Originally Posted by Legate

And did the Elves go to Rivendell? I don't have the proper material with me now, but could it not have been that they left for the Towers later? Just checking.

They have already been to Elostirion, they were returning from there when Frodo met them. After the meeting some Elves did go straight to Rivendell (Why wouldn't they take Frodo along, the pointy-eared bastards?):

[Glorfindel:] 'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned.

Some went to Tom, some passed through Bree and met Strider bearing "ill news".
I agree that the Elves likely avoided the Bridge. I think the messengers went via Ferry-Tom-Bree-Rivendell.

The rest of the Elves possibly went south to check on Sarn Ford rangers (it was easy to put 2 and 2 together and guess that these Men needed help, if any were left alive). Later the rest of Gildor's group likely took the Greenway to Bree and were stuck by the three strongest Nazgul at Andrath:

[on Sept 27] The Witch-King himself, [with BC] redoubles his vigilance on the east-borders along the Greenway... his counsels disturbed by threat of attack. Some of the Dunedain have met Elvish messengers, and [he] is uneasily aware that many enemies are watching him and though none has yet come with power to challenge him.- RC, p.164-5

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Stonebows- sure . Funny name, BTW, if you think on it. Was it a reference to the shape of the bridge's arches?

For certain.

About the hobbit guards at the Bridge. I haven't found where it was explicitly said in LotR that there were any guards prior to the coming of the ruffians. The guards at Hay Gate to Buckland - yes, but not the Bridge.
(...)
Also see this quote (A Conspiracy Unmasked) depicting security at Hay Gate:
You see there is only mention of the guards of Buckland at Hay-Gate, but not on the Bridge.

Oh, now I see, good you pointed it out. I actually thought Merry spoke about some guards on the bridge, now I see he spoke about those by the Gate. Well, I guess it makes sense, thinking of it, that there were no guards on the Bridge. Just remember: the Hobbits did not even lock their doors. They considered "their own Shire" safe enough. Only the Bucklanders did, but that was beyond the River, close to the Old Forest, you know the stuff - so in the light of this it seems very fitting that they had their own gate while the Shire itself was in fact unprotected.

What I found in the "Scouring" chapter was the mention of the existence of the Bridge Inn on the west bank, if that is somehow relevant.

I wonder if poor Nazgul guy did drop in for a beer or two... though it would likely be a bit small for him inside

About the rangers: I don't think there were no sheltered camping places close to the Bridge - after all, the nazgul G did stay there for 3 days unobserved and he must have kept his horse grazing nearby. The horse was not something he could make invisible and it was a very distinctive animal, not some hobbit pony. (Hmm... could someone try to steal a nazgul horse?)

Well, he could have just went to hide the horse a few miles away from the road and then return and spend all day (and night - ha! The Nazgul don't have to sleep, don't they? How efficient!) by watching the bridge from behind a tree or something like that.

But indeed, the post of rangers could have been further east, if not based in Bree itself. I think it was the case - everyone coming to the Shire from the east would most likely pass through Bree anyway.

Yes, I would think so.

I agree. If there was a "Ping" command, now was the time for G to use it. He must have been rather ring-sensitive, this G - a competent nazgul in many ways, working alone. He also had to avoid causing unnecessary fear around the Bridge to avoid panic. Likely he chose his observation post as far away from the Buckland guards and from the Bridge Inn as possible.

Yes, he was an interesting guy indeed. I think I like him Does it say specifically on which side of the bridge he was, guarding? Likely still inside the Shire, also because he would be further from the Bucklanders, who were, after all, a bit more careful and dangerous (relatively, of course).

They have already been to Elostirion, they were returning from there when Frodo met them. After the meeting some Elves did go straight to Rivendell (Why wouldn't they take Frodo along, the pointy-eared bastards?):

Some went to Tom, some passed through Bree and met Strider bearing "ill news".
I agree that the Elves likely avoided the Bridge. I think the messengers went via Ferry-Tom-Bree-Rivendell.

The rest of the Elves possibly went south to check on Sarn Ford rangers (it was easy to put 2 and 2 together and guess that these Men needed help, if any were left alive). Later the rest of Gildor's group likely took the Greenway to Bree and were stuck by the three strongest Nazgul at Andrath:

Hmm, I think I have little to none to add to that. We agree that the Elves crossed the river by themselves (thus, avoiding meeting G), but the rest of their movements is quite mysterious. But I guess your assumptions may be right about some trying to contact the Rangers at Sarn Ford (although, who knows? Not as necessary, and their behavior patterns are often seeming quite alien, like it's been pointed out). Anyway, the Elves are not the centre of our interest, are they

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I wonder if poor Nazgul guy did drop in for a beer or two... though it would likely be a bit small for him inside

He could have ordered a lunch basket. If he was indeed a Northerner, he would like beer…

Originally Posted by Legate

Well, he could have just went to hide the horse a few miles away from the road

I wonder did the nazgul tether their horses or did they let them run free as Gandy did with Shadowfax?

So, moving on...

Khamul now divided his team. Two of the nazgul H and I (that would be our hapless Frick and Frack, presumably Southrons) he sent to the Witch-King with orders to pass through Bree and check it.

Questions:
1.Why send two of them?
2. How could they expect to find the Ringbearer in Bree on September 26, when the Ring only crossed Brandywine in the evening of 25? How could Khamul expect the hobbits to reach Bree so fast?
3. Wasn't it necessary to hurry to the WK without delay bringing the news that the Ring had crossed the River - so that the WK could redouble vigilence in the Old Forest and on the Dawns?

Our Bridge-guardian G was (surprise-surprise) again left to lurk by the Bridge and Hay-Gate and guard now three horses. Well, his competence was clearly appreciated.

In the early hours of Sept 26, our two Dol-Guldur guys, Khamul (D) and his messenger E, "pass secretly into Buckland by the north gate of that land". I guess they left the horses behind and quietly climbed the Gate, while the hobbit guards were otherwise distracted (drinking beer purchased in the Bridge Inn, most likely).

Tolkien comments on the nazgul actions in Buckland: "But desiring to attract as little notice as possible Khamul (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth."-RC, p164.
And indeed, it took DE 3 days (26-28) to find Crickhollow because they "can do little except at night; and they are at a loss, since the Buckland did not appear in Saruman's charts of the Shire at all." It looks like E was not much better than Khamul in resisting daylight.

Note also that the Gaffer told Khamul that Baggins moved "to Bucklebury or some such place", and that was misleading, because Bucklebury was the chief village in Buckland, "clustering in the banks and slopes behind Brandy Hall," and Crickhollow was a lone dwelling "in the country beyond Bucklebury".

Anyway, given the absence of a map and the size of Buckland, I think searching at night and on foot was not a smart thing to do. As you remember, at night everyone in Buckland locked their doors, so there was nobody to ask for directions.

It would have been much more efficient, IMO, to "follow Merry's advice", to ride boldly to the Haygate in the morning and ask to see Baggins. (Middle Earth Express Post, urgent message for mister Baggins). There was a fair chance that a nazgul would be let through and given directions to Crickhollow.
Of course, even this way, he would be too late to catch the hobbits, who left for the Old Forest before first light on Sept 26...

Thoughts?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Khamul now divided his team. Two of the nazgul H and I (that would be our hapless Frick and Frack, presumably Southrons) he sent to the Witch-King with orders to pass through Bree and check it.

All right, for start, one "lighter" question - as to the identity of them, if I may now bring that up. Is it okay if we discuss this topic a bit now, among other things, since it's been brought up? I would like to ask, once again, if you could sum up what lead you to believe that these two may likely be Southrons. Relatedly; is it not possible that they were, for example, Northerners? Or, eventually, a mixed team? What would you say to a theory that one was a Southron and one a Northerner, or something like that? Or what about Easterling(s)? I am curious and if it does not bother you, I would like to hear your opinions on that

1.Why send two of them?

The answer why send "two" of them is likely simple, they possibly were a "team", working well with each other. The question why send the two of "them" is more interesting, and it would be likely related to their personalities. It has probably much to do with the fact on who remained. Let's see - Khamul did not want to go himself, because he was the highest rank around here, and he probably saw his responsibility to keep watch about the Shire. Also, he likely believed (being mislead by dozens of Gaffers) that Mr. Baggins would not be leaving yet, at least there didn't seem to be many ways to leave. His companion from Dol Guldur would stay with him, of course, no point in breaking the team. G was a capable guy, but Khamul did not want to send just one person to WK, possibly in case more hands were needed etc. Thus, logically, the two remaining folks came out. That's what I would say.

2. How could they expect to find the Ringbearer in Bree on September 26, when the Ring only crossed Brandywine in the evening of 25? How could Khamul expect the hobbits to reach Bree so fast?

I think Khamul did not yet fully realise (and take into account) the hobbit's low speed. He was still thinking in cathegories of big men, who also, if they are fleeing (like Frodo did), may use swift horses. If the Hobbits indeed left the Shire, they - according to his opinion - might have already arrived there (if they had horses, they would - of course, the journey would take them just as long as to the Riders, only they had a few hours bonus).

3. Wasn't it necessary to hurry to the WK without delay bringing the news that the Ring had crossed the River - so that the WK could redouble vigilence in the Old Forest and on the Dawns?

I guess this was possibly a miscalculation on the Nazguls' part. Again, I am imagining it the way that they did not likely think of other ways to leave the Shire than the Road (that means they must have known pretty lot about the Old Forest, for example, thinking that the Hobbits would not, or could not go there). For Khamul, the situation seemed clearly either A. Baggins left the Shire via the Road (from Buckland) before we could stop him, then hurry and fetch him before he flees too far; B. Baggins is still in Buckland (Khamul evidently thought this; proven later by the attack on Crickhollow).

In the early hours of Sept 26, our two Dol-Guldur guys, Khamul (D) and his messenger E, "pass secretly into Buckland by the north gate of that land". I guess they left the horses behind and quietly climbed the Gate, while the hobbit guards were otherwise distracted (drinking beer purchased in the Bridge Inn, most likely).

Tolkien comments on the nazgul actions in Buckland: "But desiring to attract as little notice as possible Khamul (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth."-RC, p164.
And indeed, it took DE 3 days (26-28) to find Crickhollow because they "can do little except at night; and they are at a loss, since the Buckland did not appear in Saruman's charts of the Shire at all." It looks like E was not much better than Khamul in resisting daylight.

Note also that the Gaffer told Khamul that Baggins moved "to Bucklebury or some such place", and that was misleading, because Bucklebury was the chief village in Buckland, "clustering in the banks and slopes behind Brandy Hall," and Crickhollow was a lone dwelling "in the country beyond Bucklebury".

Indeed, quite funny. Also, remember that the Nazgul did not like crowded and lighted places. A big "city" (ahem) like Bucklebury was not one of their liking. Poor them did not know the place they were looking for was lovely lonely cottage in the countryside.

Anyway, given the absence of a map and the size of Buckland, I think searching at night and on foot was not a smart thing to do. As you remember, at night everyone in Buckland locked their doors, so there was nobody to ask for directions.

It would have been much more efficient, IMO, to "follow Merry's advice", to ride boldly to the Haygate in the morning and ask to see Baggins. (Middle Earth Express Post, urgent message for mister Baggins). There was a fair chance that a nazgul would be let through and given directions to Crickhollow.
Of course, even this way, he would be too late to catch the hobbits, who left for the Old Forest before first light on Sept 26...

Quite. Cautious, were they hobbits...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

All right, for start, one "lighter" question - as to the identity of them, if I may now bring that up. Is it okay if we discuss this topic a bit now, among other things, since it's been brought up? I would like to ask, once again, if you could sum up what lead you to believe that these two may likely be Southrons. Relatedly; is it not possible that they were, for example, Northerners? Or, eventually, a mixed team? What would you say to a theory that one was a Southron and one a Northerner, or something like that? Or what about Easterling(s)? I am curious and if it does not bother you, I would like to hear your opinions on that

It is one of the most interesting aspects of this thread, so, I would love to hear your opinion on possible nazgul nationalities.

In answer to your questions: almost everything is unfortunately possible: mixed teams, no Northerners, no Southrons etc. What I have summarized below is only assumptions built on assumptions built on more assumptions. Keep this in mind, please. Any suggestions are most welcome.

What can we say on nazgul races/nationalities? Provided the nazgul still had nationalities, because after about 4500 years as ringwraiths the cultural differences, national mindsets, might have been all but obliterated. Yet Tolkien calls Khamul "the Easterling", which suggests he could still be identified as such.

However, as they had their original bodies, their physical characteristics would still reflect their origins, the three Second Age Numenorean lords being no doubt the tallest and strongest of the bunch, while mongoloids being the smallest.

Anyway, back to Tolkien's identification letters. A is the WK, D is Khamul, second to the Chief. So the letters are given not according to pecking order, but according to some other principle. Alcuin supposes that they are likely given according to nationality, and I agree it might be the case:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

As we work through the exercise, it is worth considering which of the Nazgûl might be the other two Númenóreans. B and C are obvious choices, because the Witch-king seems to keep them with him, and because in making a list, Tolkien might start by listing the three fallen Númenóreans first; after all, Khamûl is surely D, “the vanguard Rider” who reached Bag End, and he is the “second to the Chief” (Glossary, UT). Khamûl should naturally have been designated B unless there were some other compelling reason to list him fourth (D). F and G might also good choices, because they each appear to work well independently.

I make an assumption that 1. the nazgul in the same pair had the same nationality. If this assumption is incorrect, then it becomes impossibly complicated and all talk of pinpointing nationalities should, I believe, be abandoned once and for all.

Another assumption is that 2. there were four different nationalities among the nazgul: Numenoreans, Easterlings, Northerners, and Southrons. In mid Second Age the Northerners, ancestors of the Rohirrim, had to dwell there somewhere in Rhovanion or to the North-East of it, well within Sauron's sphere of interest. They were tall and strong people, racially close to the House of Hador and excellent horsemen. Sauron was quite likely to choose some of his nazgul from this people. This assumption makes the division of the eight nazgul into four pairs according to their nationality quite easy.

Then I make the third quite far-fetched assumption: 3. Edanic nazgul (Numenoreans and the Northmen) were more resistant to daylight than the Southrons and Easterlings. I have very little to back it, I admit, only the difference between Khamul and the WK in this respect.

Now what do we have?
I believe B and C were the strongest combat fighters of the Eight. They were guarding Andrath passage against the Dunedain and the Elves while the WK was away in the Barrows. It seems likely that BC were Numenoreans: a Numenorean was necessarily taller and stronger physically than say an Easterliing, it goes with the race. Physical strength meant a lot in Middle-Age fights with huge swords, maces etc. Also the endurance to daylight may have been a factor in choosing BC. They had to guard the Greenway day and night, even in the Captain's absence.
After 3.10, B and C (together with F and E) were sent to follow Gandalf, and likely B was in command of the group. I guess B may well be "Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul" who took the command at the Pelennor after WK's death. Anyway he clearly was the highest ranking nazgul after the WK in Minas Morgul.

DE were from Dol Guldur: Khamul and his messenger. Assumption No.1 makes E another Easterling. E, by the way, though weaker than Khamûl (D), was likely not so blind by daylight. He clearly led his patron D through the Central Shire to Hobbiton during daytime of Sept. 23. Yet in Buckland both of them were able to operate only at night. Maybe they really needed their horses to see in daylight.

FG and HI are thus Northmen and Southrons. FG were always separated from each other, operating on their own. Seemingly they were stronger than HI who always went together. The choice of F to operate alone and guard Sarn Ford and G to guard the Stonebows bridge may also be due to their daylight resistance. F was not very strong overall, as we know this guy was later waylaid by the Dunedain at night (Sept. 29-30). But maybe by day he was stronger than say, Khamul. Note that if both B and C were Numenoreans, neither F or G could have been another one: there were but three in all, including A.

That makes me think FG were Northerners and HI Southrons, though it is of course inconclusive. Both pairs were excellent horsemen, covering great distances at high speed. Among the 8 nazgul there were two who made the "swiftest pair" (UT). Likely it were either FG or HI.

Some more observations about Khamul:
I was speaking of mongoloids. I am not sure, though, that the Easterlings among the Nine were necessarily mongoloids. The term "Easterling" would be applicable to all denizens of the East, in Earth equivalents applicable to everyone from Arab to Russian, to Persian, to Tatar, to Mongol, to Chinese and Japanese etc. So Khamul as easily could have been a sort of highly sophisticated turban-wearing Arab, as a barbarous nomadic Genghis-Khan character.

Here let me remind you of Frodo's observations at Weathertop. He saw "five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing.[...]The third [the WK]was taller than the others"
OK, we know that Khamul the Easterling was among those five, while B and C, supposedly the Numenoreans, were absent. The WK, being the only remaining Numenorean of the five, was, of course, much taller than the others, even for a frightened hobbit to notice. Yet Frodo describes all five as tall. (Of course, maybe for a hobbit all Men were tall anyway ).
Another thing is that Khamul is described thus:

Round the corner came a black horse, no hobbit-pony but a full-sized horse; and on it sat a large man who seemed to crouch in the saddle, wrapped in a great black cloak and hood, so that only his boots in the high stirrups showed below; his face was shadowed and invisible.

At the Ferry Khamul is described as "a dark black bundle left behind" that "crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps." To me all this conveys an impression of a large squat man, maybe indeed mongoloid (?)

Originally Posted by Legate

I think Khamul did not yet fully realise (and take into account) the hobbit's low speed. He was still thinking in categories of big men, who also, if they are fleeing (like Frodo did), may use swift horses. If the Hobbits indeed left the Shire, they - according to his opinion - might have already arrived there (if they had horses, they would - of course, the journey would take them just as long as to the Riders, only they had a few hours bonus).

Right. The hobbits may have found horses in Buckland - and Khamul didn't realize that hobbits were too small to ride normal sized horses, only ponies.

Originally Posted by Legate

Again, I am imagining it the way that they did not likely think of other ways to leave the Shire than the Road (that means they must have known pretty lot about the Old Forest, for example, thinking that the Hobbits would not, or could not go there). For Khamul, the situation seemed clearly either A. Baggins left the Shire via the Road (from Buckland) before we could stop him, then hurry and fetch him before he flees too far; B. Baggins is still in Buckland (Khamul evidently thought this; proven later by the attack on Crickhollow).

Version A seems to imply that G was not sure that no one left Buckland by the Hay-Gate to go East? Could be, if he was lurking on the West bank.
I am not sure about Khamul, but the WK expected the hobbits to make cross-country to Weathertop through the Old Forest and the Barrow-Downs:

[The Witch-king] is uncertain what to do. The Bearer seems to be making eastwards, he is therefore surely bound for Rivendell (not the Havens). He would have naturally used the East Road; but will he do so, now that he knows he is pursued? Probably he will attempt to escape from the Shire at some unexpected point, through the Old Forest and the Downs, and there make cross-country to strike the Road beyond Weathertop, maybe. -RC, p. 164

But of course, the WK was far more familiar with the layout of the land than the other nazgul.

Note: I would greatly appreciate some input from other Mooters! It is not as if it is only between me and Legate.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Right. The hobbits may have found horses in Buckland - and Khamul didn't realize that hobbits were too small to ride normal sized horses, only ponies.

JRRT must have not met any professional jockies. The are "small, even diminutive".

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

JRRT must have not met any professional jockies. The are "small, even diminutive".

Well but still not 3 feet tall, I guess!

[Attalus]

Man, they would have made a mint in the pro circuit, and never even had to diet or use diuretics!

[Alcuin]

BUMP!


Where is Gordis?