Dress codes.

[katya]

Woohoo!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I'd bet she knows she's a home ec teacher, Coffeehouse. She also knows something about the limitations of her research, as quoted in this article. A study of six big-city Ohio public schools showed students who were required to wear uniforms had improved graduation, behavior and attendance rates. Academic performance was unchanged.


The researcher, Virginia Draa of Youngstown State University, said the conclusions were limited by the size of the study released Wednesday.

"Uniforms alone do not improve student reading and math proficiency test scores, but they do help in addressing problems with discipline and attendance in a school building," Draa said. Now, from my point of view, the mission of a school should be "improved academic performance," and the fact that people can, with a straight face, point to one small study that says, "Well, they didn't learn any more, but we didn't send them home" as evidence in favor of school uniforms is pretty darned funny.

Given that the adoption of school uniforms probably follows "dress codes" that send kids home for violations, it would be pretty surprising if attendence did NOT go up.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I'd bet she knows she's a home ec teacher, Coffeehouse. She also knows something about the limitations of her research, as quoted in this article. A study of six big-city Ohio public schools showed students who were required to wear uniforms had improved graduation, behavior and attendance rates. Academic performance was unchanged.


The researcher, Virginia Draa of Youngstown State University, said the conclusions were limited by the size of the study released Wednesday.

"Uniforms alone do not improve student reading and math proficiency test scores, but they do help in addressing problems with discipline and attendance in a school building," Draa said. Now, from my point of view, the mission of a school should be "improved academic performance," and the fact that people can, with a straight face, point to one small study that says, "Well, they didn't learn any more, but we didn't send them home" as evidence in favor of school uniforms is pretty darned funny.

Given that the adoption of school uniforms probably follows "dress codes" that send kids home for violations, it would be pretty surprising if attendence did NOT go up.

Hehe well avoid straw man arguments.

You see I did not argue that student reading and math profiency would be a direct beneficiary. But that discipline and efficiency would be improved...

I think it's one study, and one study only. It's still a master's paper. It's still written by an assistant professor who has analyzed 64 different schools. She's being moderate in her review of her own work, just like you'd expect. And singling out the word attendance to mean students going to school or not isn't exactly understanding the meaning. She writes "but they do help in addressing problems with discipline and attendance in a school building". Including attendance at school, it means discipline in school, which can cover any aspect of the education, and attendance in a school building, meaning students showing up on time and in the numbers you'd expect.
Nobody says uniform dress code is a guarantee for a massive all-out improvement in grades. It's just a dress code not an IQ-improver. But with discpline and efficiency (and that's been empirically proven over and over), comes better education.
Unless you want to dispute that too..

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Hehe well avoid straw man arguments.

You see I did not argue that student reading and math profiency would be a direct beneficiary. But that discipline and efficiency would be improved...

I think it's one study, and one study only. It's still a master's paper. It's still written by an assistant professor who has analyzed 64 different schools. She's being moderate in her review of her own work, just like you'd expect. And singling out the word attendance to mean students going to school or not isn't exactly understanding the meaning. She writes "but they do help in addressing problems with discipline and attendance in a school building". Including attendance at school, it means discipline in school, which can cover any aspect of the education, and attendance in a school building, meaning students showing up on time and in the numbers you'd expect.
Nobody says uniform dress code is a guarantee for a massive all-out improvement in grades. It's just a dress code not an IQ-improver. But with discpline and efficiency (and that's been empirically proven over and over), comes better education.

Um, no, it hasn't. People aren't better educated because of discipline and efficiency imposed from outside. It's the self-discipline that has a payoff, and you can't find a study that says otherwise.

You maybe don't understand how completely unimpressed I am with Ms. Draa's credentials as a researcher. However, I can help you if you respect her authority.

Here, for example, she has more insight on fashion : http://media.www.thejambar.com/media...-3332855.shtml

The graduates from her department can go on to careers as personal shoppers, according to their website. THERE'S a basis for public policy!

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Um, no, it hasn't. People aren't better educated because of discipline and efficiency imposed from outside. It's the self-discipline that has a payoff, and you can't find a study that says otherwise.

You maybe don't understand how completely unimpressed I am with Ms. Draa's credentials as a researcher. However, I can help you if you respect her authority.

Here, for example, she has more insight on fashion : http://media.www.thejambar.com/media...-3332855.shtml

The graduates from her department can go on to careers as personal shoppers, according to their website. THERE'S a basis for public policy!

Obviously, lol it's a funny article, this Ms. Draa specializes in clothing and the social order it involves. I've seen professors give views on weirder stuff than that.

But when you write "People aren't better educated because of discipline and efficiency imposed from outside." I don't see what your arguing against because it isn't my stance
Wearing a uniform, and the conformity it brings for students, is not discipline and efficiency imposed from the outside, neither do I argue it is. It is, plainly, a dress code a school may choose to have. It is part of the school atmosphere, and way of facilitating, not forcing or imposing discipline. Obviously self-discipline is the way forward, not tight discipline by authority. Respect for others, and self-respect. With mutual respect comes less obstructive behaviour, greater focus, greater discipline. Focus spurs discipline, not the other way around. Avoid the straw man arguments

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Coffehouse, you referenced one study that supported uniforms. Absent a look at the study itself, looking at the credentials of the author is entirely germane, AND appropriate. Her credentials are, to be polite, extremely minor.

The National Association Of Elementary School Principals lists a number of studies :

The School Uniform Movement and What It Tells Us about American Education, by David L. Brunsma, Scarecrow Education, July 2004, 302 pp.
The book, which brings together research on school uniform use, finds that uniforms have not been effective at curbing school violence and cultivating student motivation, despite anecdotal evidence.
A study conducted by an independent research firm headed by Scott Joftus, Ed.D., funded by French Toast, manufacturer of children's apparel and school uniforms, and released in April, 2004, found school uniform policies helped improve school safety and student achievement, including grades and test scores, in three diverse public school districts (Denver Public Schools in Denver, Colorado; Aldine Independent School District outside of Houston, Texas; and CEO's District of Baltimore City Public Schools).
http://frenchtoast.com/images/Final%20data.pdf
An ERIC Clearinghouse Policy Report that covers school uniforms and dress codes extensively from different points of view.
http://eric.uoregon.edu/publications/pub_policy.html

"Dress Codes and Uniforms" by Linda Lumsden and Gabriel Miller provides summaries of five publications on facets, pros, and cons, of school uniform use. NAESP Research Roundup - Summer 2002, Volume 18, Number 4

Teresa Carroll, director of communications for the Penn-Harris-Madison School Corporation in Mishawaka, IN, provides a three-page description of the process for the district’s policy change regarding school dress. Sensible strategies and advice are also offered at: www.nspra.org/Scenario-Uniforms.pdf

Manual on School Uniforms, published by the U.S. Department of Education, gives its recommendations and some examples of schools in many states that have policies as well as advice from experienced sources on how to implement a school uniform policy.
www.ed.gov/updates/uniforms.html

School Uniforms Why and How is a free booklet written by NAESP in partnership with Lands' End, Inc. Call Lands' End for copies at 1-800-544-9920. The booklet discusses NAESP's survey, gives examples of schools that have uniforms, and gives advice on how to develop a policy. See the booklet in PDF.
New Century School, "Issues Forum: School Uniforms," provides a thorough discussion of the arguments surrounding the question of mandatory school uniforms.
http://danenet.wicip.org/ncs/forumuniformseval.htm

"School Uniforms: Panacea or Band-Aid," an article on the Education World Web site, summarizes the issues on both sides of the public school uniforms issue.
www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin130.shtml

"School Uniforms: A Critical Review of the Literature" by David L. Brunsma, reports that support for school uniforms in public schools relies "overwhelmingly" on anecdotal evidence and that the empirical research on the issue is (at best) not conclusive.
www.geocities.com/school_uniforms/report2.html
www.pdkintl.org/products/npw0111.htm
"Order in the Classroom: Violence, Discipline and Student Achievement" by Harold Wenglinsky, Richard Coley and Paul Barton, is an Education Testing Service Policy Information Report. This study found that uniforms had no effect on student academic achievement. Available for $10.50 at www.ets.org/search97cgi/s97_cgi

"The Effects of Student Uniforms on Attendance, Behavior Problems, Substance Use, and Academic Achievement" by David L. Brunsma and Kerry A. Rockquemore, finds "that student uniforms have no direct effect on substance use, behavioral problems or attendance." The Journal of Education Research (Volume 92, Number 1, Sept./Oct. 1998, pp. 53-62)
www.members.tripod.com/rockqu/uniform.htm

"Perception Versus Reality: School Uniforms and the 'Halo Effect'" by Marc Posner, Harvard Education Newsletter, May/June 1996.
www.edletter.org/order/orderissue.shtml to order a reprint; www.edletter.org is the home page

The ones highlighted in blue (funded by uniform companies, oddly enough) support uniforms. The ones highlighted in red say they don't make a difference. The black ones present both sides.

Repeating. There is no scientific support for the imposition of uniforms on schools in the US as a solution for anything. It doesn't 'increase mutual respect' or any of the other magical powers you seem to endow it with. It's not effective, unless your goal is unclear to me. Could you state the goal you see uniforms achieving, please?

[Coffeehouse]

Yeah, magical powers, exactly...

I'm afraid I don't feel the need to re-state what I've spelled out 3-4 times now. But since you keep disfiguring my arguments I will spell it out for you

For the third time, straw man arguments are a dead-end. But if you want to go around in circles chasing imaginary arguments I won't stop you
I've not stated that there is scienfitic evidence that generally supports uniform dress code in helping a school to deal with all of its problems.
I've explicitly stated why I believe a uniform dress code can provide
incentives for discipline and a better work ethic. I explicitly stated
this is entirely dependent on the standards and attitudes of the school authority, and how they cooperate with the students to achieve a dignity of wearing a uniform. An incentive for respect.

Just as an example of your own source, being quite pro-uniform (yet you color it black), the U.S. Department of Education states:
"They observed that the adoption of school uniform policies can promote school safety, improve discipline, and enhance the learning environment"
That's literally word for word what I've been argueing.. I rest my case.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Yeah, magical powers, exactly...

I'm afraid I don't feel the need to re-state what I've spelled out 3-4 times now. But since you keep disfiguring my arguments I will spell it out for you

For the third time, straw man arguments are a dead-end. But if you want to go around in circles chasing imaginary arguments I won't stop you
I've not stated that there is scienfitic evidence that generally supports uniform dress code in helping a school to deal with all of its problems.
I've explicitly stated why I believe a uniform dress code can provide
incentives for discipline and a better work ethic. I explicitly stated
this is entirely dependent on the standards and attitudes of the school authority, and how they cooperate with the students to achieve a dignity of wearing a uniform. An incentive for respect.

Just as an example of your own source, being quite pro-uniform (yet you color it black), the U.S. Department of Education states:
"They observed that the adoption of school uniform policies can promote school safety, improve discipline, and enhance the learning environment"
That's literally word for word what I've been argueing.. I rest my case.

But the "They" referenced in that quote is "many parents, teachers, and school officials". This identifies the source as anecdotal, and makes other discussions of 'the halo effect' extremely relevent.

I'm not denying that many people think school uniforms are just swell. That's evident from the fact that school uniforms have been adopted in many places. I'm saying that I haven't yet seen any scientific evidence that demonstrates that the adoption of uniforms increases the success of our schools. Shouldn't that be a criteria for the removal of a freedom from the population?

You seem to feel I am not having this conversation in good faith. I was having a little fun with it...after all, we're talking about plaid skirts, not the situation in Darfur. But I really don't understand how you connect "wearing a uniform" to 'mutual respect". I don't see mutual respect being attendent on uniforms in any other environment, and I don't know how it would become greater in schools by the addition of uniforms. So I don't understand your position. I won't press it, though. It surely doesn't matter, I just thought it would be an interesting discussion, on a slow Sunday.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Dress codes at schools work for a number of reasons. They act on the students in conformity, thus promoting an equality of kinds, which leaves more room for focus and productivity in the classroom.

I think you're being very naive here. I attended both uniformed & non-uniformed schools. The dynamics (and tendency towards cliques) was fairly equal in both circumstances. I don't think it's possible to promote equality and 'conformity' amongst teenagers.

Sis? IMO, dress-codes are nonsensical, and vaguely nazi-ish. I don't think they enhance or provide any positive aspects to a work place or place of learning.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I think you're being very naive here. I attended both uniformed & non-uniformed schools. The dynamics (and tendency towards cliques) was fairly equal in both circumstances. I don't think it's possible to promote equality and 'conformity' amongst teenagers.

Sis? IMO, dress-codes are nonsensical, and vaguely nazi-ish. I don't think they enhance or provide any positive aspects to a work place or place of learning.

Hehe.. well you see I've attended both uniformed and non-uniformed myself, and it proved a massive difference. Pretty odd though to argue that you can't promote equality and conformity amongst teenagers.

[BeardofPants]

*shrug* What can I say? You have one experience, I have another. Uniforms made no difference to the behaviours of teens within my sphere of influence.

RE: Equality... odd? Not really. Cliques will always exist, and power struggles are pretty natural behaviours. Clothes won't make an iota of difference with regards to these natural behaviours being played out.

Conformity of thought... teens? When their whole process is about rebellion? The only conformity I ever saw was conformity to fashion or music, lol.

I'm sorry, I wholly disagree with you.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

*shrug* What can I say? You have one experience, I have another. Uniforms made no difference to the behaviours of teens within my sphere of influence.

And? You're deluding yourself if you think I'm arguing that flipping on a uniform makes the difference. If the school can't promote the uniform as something special, getting students to use uniform with dignity, they might as well throw it away.

**There's nothing in the clothes that promotes equality. The clothes themselves, except for looking formal and neat, aren't magical. It's what the clothes represents that's important. No one's saying cliques don't form, no one's saying teenagers will stop being teenagers...**

[BeardofPants]

"They act on the students in conformity, thus promoting an equality of kinds, which leaves more room for focus and productivity in the classroom."

which is it? The clothes promote equality... or not?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Conformity of thought... teens? When their whole process is about rebellion? The only conformity I ever saw was conformity to fashion or music, lol.

I'm sorry, I wholly disagree with you.

Omg.. You see I specifically argued that conformity of thought was not achievable, but conformity of behaviour in the classroom. Smart to read things through huh?

[BeardofPants]

You know, I'm trying really hard to be polite here, but you have now insulted my intelligence twice. I apologise for missing where you clarified the 'conformity' to be conformity of behaviour rather than thought. I'm tired, and I've had a long day at work, for what it's worth.

I'm still waiting for clarity on your POV for equality.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

"They act on the students in conformity, thus promoting an equality of kinds, which leaves more room for focus and productivity in the classroom."

which is it? The clothes promote equality... or not?

Lol and the same goes here. It's an equality of kinds: then I specify.. focus and productivity in the classroom. 30 students in a classroom, all wearing the same thing, streamlines the eyes, and then ears, to look ahead. You want to argue against that?

And BoP, let's be clear on this, this is not about insulting your intelligence, but having to repeat my arguments from a 2-page thread, where you should quite easily be able to read to distinguish arguments from non-arguments, is kinda tiering.. Anyways, I didn't start my post by calling you naive. That was your post

[Tessar]

Lets all be as reasonable and civilized as people on Entmoot debate threads can possibly be .

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Lol and the same goes here. It's an equality of kinds: then I specify.. focus and productivity in the classroom. 30 students in a classroom, all wearing the same thing, streamlines the eyes, and then ears, to look ahead. You want to argue against that?

Yes, actually I do. You currently attend university... correct? Or am I thinking of someone else? Do you wear a uniform there? If not, do you find that wearing mufti detracts from the value of the lesson/class?

[BeardofPants]

To qualify, I've found that in mufti-schools, as a general rule, there's been less pressure in the fashion department because you're wearing mufti every day. It's much like university. Gets to the point where you're just so poor, and all your clothes are in the wash anyway, and well... you're there to learn, not catwalk model. My (very tired) opinion is that a dress code doesn't make a difference (not noticeably) in the learning experience.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Lets all be as reasonable and civilized as people on Entmoot debate threads can possibly be .

Hey, I'm being very well behaved... for me.

*downtrouts Tessar