02-21-2009, 06:10 PM | #21 |
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E was the catcher; Khamûl was the batter. The hounds to the hunters: he hoped he was driving the prey toward E, and he was making him aware of it. As far as Khamûl and E knew, the only way out was by the bridge, and they had the Ringbearer trapped between the hills and the river. Khamûl just missed Frodo at Maggot’s farm: he’d found his way into the lower lands in the floodplain and ridden across Maggot’s fields.
Come to think of it, when Khamûl followed Frodo to the Ferry, he was probably following him from Maggot’s farm: he must have thought that the Ringbearer would be caught by him and E at some lonely spot along the road that ran along the river. By taking the Ferry, Frodo and his friends might have just avoided a trap. Last edited by Alcuin : 02-21-2009 at 06:46 PM. Reason: “caught him” -- > “caught by him” |
02-21-2009, 07:38 PM | #22 | |
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In fact, first Khamul met E, then they both visited Maggot. Sure, Maggot saw only Khamul, but E must have been just round the corner:
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Hobbits, rabbits - enough to drive a decent nazgul nuts. |
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02-21-2009, 07:59 PM | #23 |
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02-21-2009, 10:06 PM | #24 | |
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BTW, Gordis, such a meticulous research, but the "alphabet" is confusing. Maybe we should stick to Frik, Frak and so on?
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02-22-2009, 08:08 AM | #25 | ||
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It is telling how many times they had near-misses. Not one, not two, not three, not four, but five. I would say one is unfortunate, two perhaps also so.. three becomes a worrying tendency, four and five are a clear pattern. The Nazgûl get a C for their hunt in the Shire: - They don't get a lower grade because they did in fact locate Bag End and managed to pick up on that the Ring-bearer had in fact left journeying. That merits a mediocre grade. The Nazgûl must then show that they can perform the next step in their task, closing in on their prey before the trail cools. - An A they simply can't get because they never confronted nor came close to getting a hold of the ring. The ring-bearer never felt threathened to the point of peril. - Neither did they show the competence nor efficiency that a B could warrant. During the time that the hobbits were with the Elves near Woody End the Nazgûl had an entire night to scramble as many as they could possibly muster to cover the terrain in the immediate vicinity. They had both the time and the nocturnal vision to map out the terrain, and should then have learned of the rugged, down-sloping terrain after Woody End that proved hard for one of Nazgûl to pass through on horseback. This they would have to make amends for, but they didn't. Had the Nazgûl been competent in their hunt they would have anticipated the next move. Contrary to this approach, the Nazgûl were yet again on the backfoot after the hobbits had left Woody End, not nearly as hot on the trail as they should have been. They had a clear tactical advantage to benefit from the delay of the ring-bearer's journey, but did not take it. Failing to ambush the hobbits between Woody End and Farmer Maggots farm is, I argue, clearly incompetence. The Nazgûl did not capture the ring-bearer between Bag End and Crickhollow. Not only did they fail to confront the ring-bearer, they also lost the trail on numerous occasions, the consequences being that they did not catch up on the trail again until Bree. That fellow Mooters, simply isn't good enough
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02-22-2009, 03:36 PM | #26 | ||||
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I guess this night Khamul was in dismay, feeling that the Hunt had already failed. The Hobbits had just met a whole company of Calaquendi Elves and were now travelling with them. They could go unhindered any way now - to the Havens or to Rivendell, like a flagship passing in majesty through a small fleet of boats. What would G be able to do to stop the Elves from crossing the Bridge he was guarding? - nothing. What would all the five nazgul in the Shire be able to do against Gildor's Elves? Nothing. Why bother to assemble the others? Who would have thought that the Elves were not going to help the Hobbits with the Ring, that they would abandon them in the morning? Only in the late morning, after having examined the campsite of the Elves on the ridge above Woodhall, Khamul understood that the Ring and the Elves had parted company. The ring-smell and the Elf-smell were coming from different directions. Maybe a less ring-sensitive nazgul than Khamul wouldn't have been able to understand even that. Likely ours Frick and Frack would have lost the Ring at this point altogether. Quote:
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Khamul came to question Maggot before the hobbits came there. Seemingly Khamul could tell that Maggot was not lying to him, so he believed that the Ring had bypassed the farm. Anyway, Khamul asked Maggot to watch for Baggins and tell him if the latter comes. Maggot had an opportunity to earn a hefty sum of Mordor gold. Bill Ferny in his place wouldn't have hesitated a second. Quote:
The principal fault was that of Isengard spies: they missed the Ferry and didn't map it. Then there were Elves... Last edited by Gordis : 03-09-2009 at 02:52 PM. |
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03-22-2009, 07:24 AM | #27 |
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The side-discussion has been moved to its own thread: Ability to Communicate with The One Ring
Sorry if I kept you waiting but I'm not usually around to do mod-work at 7AM on a Sunday.
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03-22-2009, 05:56 PM | #28 |
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Thank you, Earniel!
Does anybody want to say more about the first episode of the Hunt - 5 nazgul in the Shire (until the escape of the hobbits by the Ferry)? |
03-23-2009, 11:39 AM | #29 | |
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There was also one thing I wanted to point out, and that was that they were still incredibly lucky. Khamul was actually really lucky to pick, of all possibilities, the road which the Ring took - the one through Greenhill country, which was, like somebody mentioned on this thread, leading to a blind end! It was by no means any important road, it lead through the wildest part of the Shire (except for the borderlands). Really lucky he was. But yes, that may be about it; let's move on! |
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03-23-2009, 08:48 PM | #30 | |
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Let us indeed move on. So, late at night on September 25-26 Khamul's group of five nazgul DEGHI assemble by the Brandywine bridge. It was easy to do: I had just finished his round trip through the Northfarthing, H came to the Bridge following the Great Road from West to East, D and E met each other at the Ferry, minutes later than necessary, and went together to the Bridge. G had been guarding the Bridge for 2 days already. Here I have some questions: 1. Were there any Rangers guarding this entrance to the Shire? Normally there should have been, if we consider that there was a strong guard of Rangers at the Sarn-Ford entrance. Why not guard also this one? Yet there is no mention of Rangers at the Bridge of Strongbows. 2. Was G letting the traffic over the Bridge to continue unhindered? There could have been some Hobbits going to and from Buckland, as well as Dwarves etc. travelling along the Road. Or was the Bridge deserted? 3. We know that some Elves of Gildor were likely to cross the Bridge on their way to Bree and Rivendell. Or did they cross by Ferry, visit Tom and go to Bree? Did they go check on the Rangers of Sarn-Ford first, once they learned that nazgul had somehow gotten into the Shire? Did they tell Aragorn about the fate of his Rangers? Note that in the drafts in HOME 7 (and only in the drafts) there is an Entry for Sept 25: "Strider hears ill news from Elves." Was it about hobbits or about Sarn Ford? Was there enough time for an Elf to start from Woody End in early hours of Sept. 25, go to Sarn-Ford, go to Bree and come there the same day? Impossible I think, it would be more than 200 miles... Last edited by Gordis : 03-23-2009 at 08:49 PM. |
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03-24-2009, 04:58 PM | #31 | |||
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But it is an interesting question. One might be that there were enough Hobbit guards by the bridge ("enough", certainly by hobbits' measures, and, well, in that case - where would the Rangers stay? The hobbits won't certainly feel comfortable if they knew a band of Big Folk - Strider-like weird men from wilderness, dangerous no doubt - was camping around their borders, so the Rangers would have to stay far away enough, so if there were any in the East, they were likely not in the close proximity to the Bridge), Buckland was guarded by a gate, and the entrance to the Shire was possible only via the bridge. Remember there were some guards (hobbits) by the bridge - that was explicitely said in LotR. (Far later, Sharkey's men built a gate even by the bridge.) The situation at Sarn Ford was different, there the border of the Shire was scarcely guarded, there (seemingly) existed not as large, if any, settlement as by the Bridge, so the Shire was far more vulnerable for attack from there; also, the Rangers could work there "undisturbed" by the Shiriffs ("Hey, Big Man, what are you doing here?" "Erm... well, in fact, I was..." "Don't try anything on me! You are under arrest!"). Quote:
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03-25-2009, 04:28 AM | #32 | ||||||
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About the hobbit guards at the Bridge. I haven't found where it was explicitly said in LotR that there were any guards prior to the coming of the ruffians. The guards at Hay Gate to Buckland - yes, but not the Bridge. What I found in the "Scouring" chapter was the mention of the existence of the Bridge Inn on the west bank, if that is somehow relevant. Also see this quote (A Conspiracy Unmasked) depicting security at Hay Gate: Quote:
About the rangers: I don't think there were no sheltered camping places close to the Bridge - after all, the nazgul G did stay there for 3 days unobserved and he must have kept his horse grazing nearby. The horse was not something he could make invisible and it was a very distinctive animal, not some hobbit pony. (Hmm... could someone try to steal a nazgul horse?) But indeed, the post of rangers could have been further east, if not based in Bree itself. I think it was the case - everyone coming to the Shire from the east would most likely pass through Bree anyway. Quote:
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I agree that the Elves likely avoided the Bridge. I think the messengers went via Ferry-Tom-Bree-Rivendell. The rest of the Elves possibly went south to check on Sarn Ford rangers (it was easy to put 2 and 2 together and guess that these Men needed help, if any were left alive). Later the rest of Gildor's group likely took the Greenway to Bree and were stuck by the three strongest Nazgul at Andrath: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 03-25-2009 at 04:46 AM. |
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03-25-2009, 01:32 PM | #33 | |||||||
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03-25-2009, 04:52 PM | #34 | ||
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So, moving on... Khamul now divided his team. Two of the nazgul H and I (that would be our hapless Frick and Frack, presumably Southrons) he sent to the Witch-King with orders to pass through Bree and check it. Questions: 1.Why send two of them? 2. How could they expect to find the Ringbearer in Bree on September 26, when the Ring only crossed Brandywine in the evening of 25? How could Khamul expect the hobbits to reach Bree so fast? 3. Wasn't it necessary to hurry to the WK without delay bringing the news that the Ring had crossed the River - so that the WK could redouble vigilence in the Old Forest and on the Dawns? Our Bridge-guardian G was (surprise-surprise) again left to lurk by the Bridge and Hay-Gate and guard now three horses. Well, his competence was clearly appreciated. In the early hours of Sept 26, our two Dol-Guldur guys, Khamul (D) and his messenger E, "pass secretly into Buckland by the north gate of that land". I guess they left the horses behind and quietly climbed the Gate, while the hobbit guards were otherwise distracted (drinking beer purchased in the Bridge Inn, most likely). Tolkien comments on the nazgul actions in Buckland: "But desiring to attract as little notice as possible Khamul (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth."-RC, p164. And indeed, it took DE 3 days (26-28) to find Crickhollow because they "can do little except at night; and they are at a loss, since the Buckland did not appear in Saruman's charts of the Shire at all." It looks like E was not much better than Khamul in resisting daylight. Note also that the Gaffer told Khamul that Baggins moved "to Bucklebury or some such place", and that was misleading, because Bucklebury was the chief village in Buckland, "clustering in the banks and slopes behind Brandy Hall," and Crickhollow was a lone dwelling "in the country beyond Bucklebury". Anyway, given the absence of a map and the size of Buckland, I think searching at night and on foot was not a smart thing to do. As you remember, at night everyone in Buckland locked their doors, so there was nobody to ask for directions. It would have been much more efficient, IMO, to "follow Merry's advice", to ride boldly to the Haygate in the morning and ask to see Baggins. (Middle Earth Express Post, urgent message for mister Baggins). There was a fair chance that a nazgul would be let through and given directions to Crickhollow. Of course, even this way, he would be too late to catch the hobbits, who left for the Old Forest before first light on Sept 26... Thoughts? |
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04-02-2009, 02:56 PM | #35 | ||||||
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04-03-2009, 03:38 AM | #36 | ||||||
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In answer to your questions: almost everything is unfortunately possible: mixed teams, no Northerners, no Southrons etc. What I have summarized below is only assumptions built on assumptions built on more assumptions. Keep this in mind, please. Any suggestions are most welcome. What can we say on nazgul races/nationalities? Provided the nazgul still had nationalities, because after about 4500 years as ringwraiths the cultural differences, national mindsets, might have been all but obliterated. Yet Tolkien calls Khamul "the Easterling", which suggests he could still be identified as such. However, as they had their original bodies, their physical characteristics would still reflect their origins, the three Second Age Numenorean lords being no doubt the tallest and strongest of the bunch, while mongoloids being the smallest. Anyway, back to Tolkien's identification letters. A is the WK, D is Khamul, second to the Chief. So the letters are given not according to pecking order, but according to some other principle. Alcuin supposes that they are likely given according to nationality, and I agree it might be the case: Quote:
Another assumption is that 2. there were four different nationalities among the nazgul: Numenoreans, Easterlings, Northerners, and Southrons. In mid Second Age the Northerners, ancestors of the Rohirrim, had to dwell there somewhere in Rhovanion or to the North-East of it, well within Sauron's sphere of interest. They were tall and strong people, racially close to the House of Hador and excellent horsemen. Sauron was quite likely to choose some of his nazgul from this people. This assumption makes the division of the eight nazgul into four pairs according to their nationality quite easy. Then I make the third quite far-fetched assumption: 3. Edanic nazgul (Numenoreans and the Northmen) were more resistant to daylight than the Southrons and Easterlings. I have very little to back it, I admit, only the difference between Khamul and the WK in this respect. Now what do we have? I believe B and C were the strongest combat fighters of the Eight. They were guarding Andrath passage against the Dunedain and the Elves while the WK was away in the Barrows. It seems likely that BC were Numenoreans: a Numenorean was necessarily taller and stronger physically than say an Easterliing, it goes with the race. Physical strength meant a lot in Middle-Age fights with huge swords, maces etc. Also the endurance to daylight may have been a factor in choosing BC. They had to guard the Greenway day and night, even in the Captain's absence. After 3.10, B and C (together with F and E) were sent to follow Gandalf, and likely B was in command of the group. I guess B may well be "Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul" who took the command at the Pelennor after WK's death. Anyway he clearly was the highest ranking nazgul after the WK in Minas Morgul. DE were from Dol Guldur: Khamul and his messenger. Assumption No.1 makes E another Easterling. E, by the way, though weaker than Khamûl (D), was likely not so blind by daylight. He clearly led his patron D through the Central Shire to Hobbiton during daytime of Sept. 23. Yet in Buckland both of them were able to operate only at night. Maybe they really needed their horses to see in daylight. FG and HI are thus Northmen and Southrons. FG were always separated from each other, operating on their own. Seemingly they were stronger than HI who always went together. The choice of F to operate alone and guard Sarn Ford and G to guard the Stonebows bridge may also be due to their daylight resistance. F was not very strong overall, as we know this guy was later waylaid by the Dunedain at night (Sept. 29-30). But maybe by day he was stronger than say, Khamul. Note that if both B and C were Numenoreans, neither F or G could have been another one: there were but three in all, including A. That makes me think FG were Northerners and HI Southrons, though it is of course inconclusive. Both pairs were excellent horsemen, covering great distances at high speed. Among the 8 nazgul there were two who made the "swiftest pair" (UT). Likely it were either FG or HI. Some more observations about Khamul: I was speaking of mongoloids. I am not sure, though, that the Easterlings among the Nine were necessarily mongoloids. The term "Easterling" would be applicable to all denizens of the East, in Earth equivalents applicable to everyone from Arab to Russian, to Persian, to Tatar, to Mongol, to Chinese and Japanese etc. So Khamul as easily could have been a sort of highly sophisticated turban-wearing Arab, as a barbarous nomadic Genghis-Khan character. Here let me remind you of Frodo's observations at Weathertop. He saw "five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing.[...]The third [the WK]was taller than the others" OK, we know that Khamul the Easterling was among those five, while B and C, supposedly the Numenoreans, were absent. The WK, being the only remaining Numenorean of the five, was, of course, much taller than the others, even for a frightened hobbit to notice. Yet Frodo describes all five as tall. (Of course, maybe for a hobbit all Men were tall anyway ). Another thing is that Khamul is described thus: Quote:
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I am not sure about Khamul, but the WK expected the hobbits to make cross-country to Weathertop through the Old Forest and the Barrow-Downs: Quote:
Note: I would greatly appreciate some input from other Mooters! It is not as if it is only between me and Legate. Last edited by Gordis : 04-03-2009 at 04:34 AM. |
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04-03-2009, 12:29 PM | #37 |
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JRRT must have not met any professional jockies. The are "small, even diminutive".
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04-03-2009, 02:32 PM | #38 |
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04-04-2009, 11:42 AM | #39 |
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Man, they would have made a mint in the pro circuit, and never even had to diet or use diuretics!
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10-05-2010, 09:39 PM | #40 |
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BUMP!
Where is Gordis? |
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