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05-07-2005, 02:27 PM | #21 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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But Saruman was leader of the Council, and had looked into the arts of Sauron, the most out of any in ME. And at this point the Council still trusted him. IMO there was some sense of wisdom in not wantin to attack DG. Sauron would be stronger in Mordor than he was in DG, why force him to move to where he was stronger?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-07-2005, 05:21 PM | #22 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
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One more, as in a tie, Saruman would have casting vote. Cirdan perhaps? convinced by the expertise and wisdom of Saruman? |
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05-07-2005, 08:30 PM | #23 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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FWIW, found the following in a post on The Barrows-Down Discussion Forum:
... it is in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", which I'd like to see consolidated with LoTR appendices, UTs and what else into as full a tale of "Middle-Earth" in the Second & Third Age as possible (aside from T&BA/LoTR). ORPTA was specifically written by JRRT for publication with "Quenta Silmarillion" and I believe it was essentially finished during his lifetime, and thus may be considered to be true Canon, as opposed to the "Quenta Silmarillion" as diputably edited by CRT for The Silmarillion for which I'm working now with the 2nd Edition, as opposed to my treasured 1st American Printing. On page 300-2, which I'll assume here to be canon, it gives a good telling of the White Council, but I see no mention of "five" having specifically undertaken the assault on Dol Guldor, and I doubt that there is such a reference. This telling does confirm, as I thought, that Cirdan was a Charter Member of the White Council, along with Elrond and Galadriel. Actually, ORPTA refers to the White Council as primarily an Eldarin enterprise. (In fact, some of its members had been part of the Second Age's first such council) Besides the three already noted, other Elven Lords were definitely counted amoung it members, who would undoubtedly include at least Celeborn, Glorfindel and Erestor. (I would not, however, list Thranduil, Gildor, Elrohir, Elladen, Arwen, or Haldir among even potential White Councillors, even if the first two were at times privy to the counsels of the Wise) Saruman and Gandalf are then described as joining the council too, although certainly as key members, seeing as they were the two candidates for the Chair. Radagast's absence in that text is certainly significant, as his name appears in close context just above. I take this to imply, with little uncertainty, that Gandalf and Saruman were the only Istari, who were also real members of the White Council. As for the assault, Radagast might still have been called on, geography being what it was, even if he was no more than a nominal part of the White Council. The primary players from the White Council, who were present at the scene, were Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Celeborn (with Galadhrim forces), and possibly Glorfindel leading a contingency from Rivendell and potentially even from Lindon. I believe that Elrond was not directly involved in person. I think it interesting that in the LoTR we get strong lead up about both Celeborn and Erestor being reputedly so wise. Yet, much of what they say in LoTR would lead one to at least wonder about these reputations. |
05-07-2005, 08:32 PM | #24 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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And this one's from a post on The Tolkien Forum:
Elrond, Galadriel & Cirdan are definitely mentioned. One can assume from what Glorfindel says at The Council Of Elrond, "It is clear now that even at the Council his (Saruman's) feet were already on a crooked path." This certainly seems to be said in a first hand knowledge sort of way. Also, he is called an "Elf lord from a house of princes" by Gandalf to Frodo. Maybe Erestor, called cheif of the counsellors of Elrond's household (besides Glorfindel). Probably Celeborn. Galadriel, while more 'powerful', calls him "The Lord of the Galadrim" & says he "is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth". Possibly even Thrandruil too, although I doubt that as he seems like a bit of a jerk in The Hobbit. However, he IS king of a major power in the struggle against Evil, & is to whom they bring Gollum after capturing him. BUT, thinking as I write this, he seems to be present in Northern Mirkwood when The White Council is meeting for the final time & Sauron retreats from Dol Guldur. However, as Gandalf reappears at the Battle of 5 Armies, I guess Thranduil could've left after the Dwarves escaped & come back with Gandalf. Also, maybe Elrond's 2 sons. So, there was probably at least 5 Elves, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Glorfindel & Celeborn, plus the 2 Wizards & maybe another 2-5 Elves who probably didn't have as much clout. Now, Gandalf was never chosen to head the White Council & refused. Galadriel wanted him, but he refused. Nothing's ever said that the job was his, just that he wouldn't take it. So, I can see a dialogue where they debate the leadership & Galadriel says "How about Gandalf?" & Gandalf says "I wouldn't take it even if you choose (or vote for) me." & then basically Saruman gets it. But, also remember, Saruman wasn't necessarily 2nd choice. It only says Galadriel wanted Gandalf. Note: 1. Saruman was of the same 'people of Aule' as Sauron, so more like him in skills & knowledge. 2. Gandalf says to Frodo "He is the chief of my Order & mighty among The Wise." |
05-08-2005, 12:12 PM | #25 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Awesome posts, Jon S.! I envy your knowledge of the sources.
What is then your answer to the question: Why did the White Counsil leave the Necromancer in peace for 1800 years? |
05-14-2005, 07:07 PM | #26 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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05-15-2005, 05:01 PM | #27 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Exactly, Jon S, exactly! IMHO, the European countries left Hitler in peace hoping he will turn East and attack the USSR. Stalin hoped for a lasting alliance with Hitler and wished him attack the West. The results were desastrous both for the western countries and for Russians.
Wasn't it the same with the Elves? |
05-15-2005, 10:49 PM | #28 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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Well, I'm not sure who else the Elves thought Sauron would attack besides them (who are you thinking of, men or dwarves?). I meant more along the lines of Europe had not too long ago already fought a World War, were weary of fighting, death, and destruction, and also (foolishly, in retrospect) thought Hitler's Germany could be either contained or appeased.
Perhaps the Elves felt some of these same feelings towards Sauron at those times. |
05-16-2005, 01:20 AM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
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Hence, the very similar wolf was groving and maturing in Mirkwood’s Dol Guldur. |
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05-16-2005, 11:31 AM | #30 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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08-20-2005, 02:20 AM | #31 |
Sapling
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9
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What really happend......
It was the annual Socerers Outdoor Celebrity Cookout.........they closed the wetbar early which did not go over well with the guests. Somone pulled a wand, and one thing led to another. Several arrests were reported.
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