08-23-2006, 01:48 PM | #21 | |||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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I've heard that right after 9/11, President Bush wanted to go after Iraq, and Tony Blair argued him out of it. So my view is that the intelligence the Administration was receiving about Iraq indicated that they were a threat through their links to terrorism and their WMD production from early on. If you want to see a conspiracy in the Administration though, you can do that. Quote:
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The people who were saying that there would be huge collapse of infrastructure and civilian casualties in Iraq were talking about our war with Saddam. They were saying that when we attack Saddam, we will pulverize all the country's infrastructure and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. That did not happen. We killed a minimal number of civilians when we attacked and opened opportunities for the Iraqi troops such that many of them were able to stand down. We then targetted Saddam's Republican Guard directly. The initial invasion was very well strategized and flawlessly executed, although Democrats and many anti-war generals had said it would be a total mess with hundreds of thousands of deaths and complete destruction of Iraq's infrastructure and economy. They were completely wrong because they didn't understand how technology had improved since the Persian Gulf War, and the pro-war folk were shown to be right. When President Bush declared victory in Iraq, he was correct in doing so. We had defeated Saddam Hussein and most of his forces. They were our only opponents of that moment. The insurgency was born later on, and they were largely a new enemy born partly from the civilian population and partly from foreign combatants, and funded and equipped by anti-US terrorist groups and Iran and Syria. When the insurgency attacked us, the dire predictions (or some of them) were fulfilled. But none of those people making the dire predictions linked them to an insurgency that I recall. Rather, they said we would do that to Iraq ourselves in our military campaign to oust Saddam, and they were wrong. Quote:
The people of Iraq celebrated when we invaded their land, rejoicing to be free from Saddam. They wanted freedom and we came to give it to them. We have sought to free an abused people from oppression. Because of the way they were treated and the fact that we sacrificed much on their behalf, our efforts were justified. Our invasion is morally justified, for our intentions have been noble from the beginning. But being morally in the right isn't a guarantee that it'll be easy. Al'Qaeda in Iraq is attacking the country and tearing apart the good that has been done. The Iraqis are willing to pay a price for their freedom though, just as we did in the Revolutionary War. We must help them, as they are under our protection. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2006, 04:04 AM | #22 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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It is manifestly clear to me that his Administration's public justifications of the Iraq war have been post hoc rationalisations. Quote:
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As I've said, I believe the war was about getting hold of Iraq's oil. Note how the enormous contracts were all doled out to Bush's big business mates without the inconvenience of tendering. Note also how GM crops have a protected status in the Iraqi constitution. (Not sure if that's something your Revolutionary Fathers would have fought the Brits for.) If you look into the details of how things are run there, you see vast sums of US taxpayers' money being handed over to (mostly) US companies. Quote:
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08-24-2006, 05:36 AM | #23 | ||
Elf Lord
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I'm going to respond to most of your post tomorrow, for it's very late at night for my time zone. But I wanted to respond to this part of your post right now.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2006, 01:14 PM | #24 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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08-24-2006, 01:38 PM | #25 | |||||||
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[QUOTE=The Gaffer]A point of information: we were talking about the war and its consequences, including a civil war within Iraq. War, as you seem to acknowledge, is a messy business. People don't just die from bullets; they also die from disease, hunger and lawlessness. A study in The Lancet (leading medical journal) estimated that 100,000 Iraqis died as a result of our military operations in the year following the invasion. The country's infrastructure heas yet to recover to its pre-2003 (delapidated) state. I'm afraid that you have bought the "surgical precision" myth that the military We ousted Saddam with great military precision. The aftermath, as you say, has been far uglier. The anti-war folk were saying that to defeat Saddam Hussein we'd have to level everything and everyone, though. They weren't saying the main problem would be post-war, like it has been. They were just flat-out wrong. Quote:
When you say, "the end doesn't justify the means," you make me think that you would have disagreed very strongly with a certain US politician who said, "give me liberty or give me death!" As for historians' warnings, as I said, the anti-war folk made just as many wrong predictions as the pro-war folk. And about the "traitor" exclusion, mudslinging happened on both sides and always does, in politics. Getting bitter against one political party and not every political party over that is biased. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2006, 01:40 PM | #26 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2006, 01:42 PM | #27 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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"L.E.", thanks for putting it so clearly. It saves me angst and posting time too.
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08-24-2006, 02:46 PM | #28 | |
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What amounts to martial law is not a solution, it's a temporary bandaid. And, if history is guide, it will return to what it was as soon as we step back. That is not a solution.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-24-2006, 02:49 PM | #29 | |
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Yoda: That is why you fail.
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08-24-2006, 02:56 PM | #30 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2006, 04:19 AM | #31 |
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Lief, thanks once again for a measured discussion. Lang may yer lum reek! I'm going to pick up just a couple of these points.
You know your history, so you shouldn't need to be reminded that the vast majority of Saddam's crimes were committed in the 1980s, when we were happy to support him. I know there's no statute of limitations on genocide, but it seems absolutely clear that any sense of "bringing Saddam to justice" or "freeing the Iraqi people" took second place, far behind "what suits our interests just now". That's one of the many reasons that the claim of a moral basis for the war just sticks in my throat. (If you're interested, many people on the Left DID support the war, particularly the far left, precisely for this reason. The much-reviled Guardian [www.guardian.co.uk], the most left-wing mainstream paper in the UK, ran several commentators throughout who thought that it was worth it to see Saddam banged up.) On the "everyone slags each other off, they're all the same" question, while I am sure you are right, in general terms, it is important not to be blinded to the propaganda in this particular case. There are countless examples, from Colin Powell's (remember him?) "WMD" photos, accepted uncritically by a fawning media, to the Jessica Lynch saga. The government and media collaborated in generating this propaganda specifically aimed at manipulating our beliefs about the war. It seems to have worked. On the predictions front, I agree no-one was perfect, but I am amazed that you don't see that the anti-war groups got far, far nearer the mark than the pro-war groups. Which predictions, specifically, did the pro-war groups get right? Money. Let me trace this logic. One country bombs the bejasus out of another country and therefore feels that it has a moral imperative to be compensated? An interesting service industry. Do you see how this kind of "morality" is slightly repugnant to the most of the world? An example: I read a personal account from an Iraqi (woman) whose brother's engineering company bid to the CPA to repair a damaged bridge for around $300k. The contract was awarded to a US company for $5m. Saddam had struck big deals with Russian and French oil companies, and was clearly planning to freeze the US oil industry out once sanctions were lifted. He was also selling his oil in Euros, not US dollars, which, IMO was the final nail in his coffin as far as the US was concerned. |
08-25-2006, 01:30 PM | #32 | |||||||
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During World War 2, we had to fight alongside Stalin against Hitler. Hitler was the greater threat to everyone at that time. In the same way, in the Cold War we needed Iraq's support. The Communists were taking over countries through coups and attacks and then Russia was stripping them of all their resources and pooling them into itself. They wanted to force their controlling, economically impoverishing, police state ideology around the world. They were one of the worst threats to our national security ever, partly because of their nuclear arsenal. They had to be stopped, and if you have to support a devil like Saddam to slow the advance of the bigger devil in Russia, sometimes that may just be what you have to do. I agree that freeing the Iraqi people came second to our national security on both occasions, and it was not the main reason for our attacking Iraq in 2003. WMDs were. Yet the fact that we were taking such evil out of power and seeking to replace them with democracy does morally justify our national security actions. Quote:
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Here's one disagreeable story that came out about that just yesterday: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5281052.stm When it comes to things like the Jessica Lynch story, you know, I'm glad that that rather dramatic story was told. Uplifting things do happen in Iraq as well, such as civilians coming forward and thanking our troops, or successful missions and operations against the enemy. It's good to hear a rather glamorous story too, amidst all the muck of war. And I don't believe for a second that hearing about things like that is making anybody think the war any less horrible than it actually is. Those sorts of sensational stories don't come out very often, and before this war, I don't think civilian populations have ever been so completely deluged in media information about how grisly war is, blow by blow, as the American population is now because of the media. Today we learn all the horrible things and we see photos of all of those things too. This has drained our morale to the utter low point it is at now, in spite of the fact that we've actually had far fewer casualties in this war than in almost any other war we've ever fought, have had major political successes in Iraq and are building up the military still to replace our troops. The anti-war side is getting a lot of support because the media shows photos and describes in detail every incident of casualties on our side, and many media groups show none of the successes! I mean, honestly. I go to BBC News and find almost nothing from Iraq but disaster. Then I got to CNN and find stories of our people hunting down insurgents that are completely not covered at BBC. Why? Because BBC is more left wing, and CNN more right wing. But BBC doesn't give a balanced account; only one side. I'm sure there are news agencies that do the opposite, but on the right. Oh, fiddlesticks. It's all very murky, but I agree with you that one must never be blinded by one-sided accounts of what's happening. Wherever the propaganda is coming from. I guess that's one of the reasons why I read both CNN and BBC, regularly. Quote:
The main incorrect pro-war prediction that I recall was that we'd find WMDs. Though I must confess, I didn't so closely examine the pre-war predictions on either side as I probably should have, so I can't give you a fully educated response. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2006, 05:35 PM | #33 | ||
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Voting for any party is not going to accomplish CRAP unless that party is willing to be serious about the world's threats, and the Demobrats are about as likely to do that as Princess Diana is rising from the grave. No matter how bad the Republicans are right now, and I say pretty imcompetent-the Democrats are going to toast this country in a bath of Marxist politics. Hillary wanted to make buying your own health care insurance a criminal offense, as in, you go to jail. Yeah, she might be the Dems Candidate. The Demobrats just feel burned because dear Prince Albert II didn't get to be prezzy.
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 08-25-2006 at 05:47 PM. |
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08-25-2006, 05:44 PM | #34 | |
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08-25-2006, 07:34 PM | #35 | |
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And since you mentioned it....The insurance system as it stands now (private) ABSOLUTELY sucks....but you probably don't have to deal with them as much as I do...of course, my handicapped daughter's "state run" medicaide is even worse! Her chiropractor treats her for free rather than involve himself with the clunky, funky, sucky state system so many Pubs are fond off...anything to keep money in the pockets of the have's....pawn the have not's needs on the "private sector" or the *state*.......Ronald Regan!!
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08-26-2006, 12:20 PM | #36 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Iran and Iraq-problems-outlook-discussion
Let's try to keep this moderately civil.
These two countries are 'married together' in a conflict which has similar qualities to another topic title but in fact deserves it's own topic thread, thus the split today. I hope we can limit topic discussion to the title countries here.
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08-26-2006, 02:16 PM | #37 | |
Elf Lord
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It's all part of one broader Middle East conflict. It may be difficult to discuss only Iraq and Iran, bypassing Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Gaza and terrorism abroad because it's all the same conflict going on.
But on the subject of Iran, here's some news that just came out today: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-27-2006, 08:21 AM | #38 | |
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08-27-2006, 08:33 AM | #39 | |
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Iraqi Army News
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08-27-2006, 11:25 AM | #40 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Yep, a tribal people, petty, barbarous and cruel.
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