05-02-2006, 07:52 AM | #21 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Zimraphel/Miriel was 202 years old at the Downfall. Very old for this time period, indeed. She could have lived for 20-30 more years at best, given that women lived longer than men.
But I have had a second thought about the succession. Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd (Tar-Palantir's younger brother), was Miriel's heir anyway, second in line for the Succession at the time when Tar-Palantir died. Actually, for Pharazon to get the Sceptre, there was no real necessity to marry his cousin Miriel. He could have made her abdicate in his favour (in favour of her cousin the next heir), as often older sisters did in favour of their younger brothers. And that is what she surely did, when he married her: she is not counted as a XXV ruler of Numenor between Tar-Palantir and Ar-Pharazon, as she would have been, had she ruled even for a day. But once a Heiress surrenders her right to the Scepter, there is no way back. So, Miriel wouldn't be next in line after Ar-Pharazon, her husband. Who would? Some descendant of a sibling of Ar-Zimrathon XXI, or Ar-Sakalthôr XXII, or Ar-Gimilzôr XXIII. At least one of those Kings had to have a sibling. Hardly any of their heirs would be among the Faithful, as "faithfulness" is always connected in some way with the Line of Andunie (like haemophilia). But still they would be strong-willed High Numenoreans, descendants of Elros, next to impossible to enslave. That's why Sauron sent all of them with the Fleet to their deaths. |
05-02-2006, 11:48 AM | #22 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-02-2006, 01:27 PM | #23 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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05-02-2006, 01:32 PM | #24 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Yet if the rulers had not spoken openly against it then they would have done nothing.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-02-2006, 06:24 PM | #25 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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All the quotes below were written regarding the time of Palantir’s rule. Quote:
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05-03-2006, 11:28 AM | #26 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Yet that was only one king. It would have taken for than the time of one ruler for the people of Numenor to change as they did. I'm not suggesting that the cahnge would be instantaneous, but I think that there would eventually be a a change.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-03-2006, 12:06 PM | #27 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think the Rebellion and Shadow on Numenor was one of the rare examples where Kings were completely of the like mind with the people.
To placate Numenoreans, the Valar had to lift the stupid Ban. Last edited by Gordis : 05-03-2006 at 12:13 PM. |
05-03-2006, 01:40 PM | #28 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I disagree. Numenoreans wanted immortality, they thought Valinor would give them that. They didn't want beautiful gardens and meadows, they wanted eternal life.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-07-2006, 01:55 PM | #29 |
Elven Warrior
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I second TD; the valar had no right to alter the fate of Men by allowing them to enter Valinor - nor could they. Most Men would live only 100 years more in Aman - afterwards they either leave their hroa through sudden death - or that person becomes a beast dominated by its hroa.
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05-08-2006, 07:00 AM | #30 |
Enting
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IMO, the explanation as to why sending them aginst the valar, is connected with the great themes of Tolkien:
1. Evil defeats itself 2. Always Morgoth (and hence Sauron) chiefly delighted in dividing their chief foes. As Morgoth sew dissention between Feanor and the valar, and then between the ruling Noldor, sauron wanted to forever estrange men from the valar. This, to him, could perhaps be a greater victory even than controlling the world himself.
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07-08-2006, 10:02 PM | #31 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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On the other hand, the corruption may well have had some 'magical' qualities as well, and Sauron might have kept them in line long enough for there to be no turning back. Also, Tolkien doesn't strike me as a big follower of the idea that people ever truly change...
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 07-08-2006 at 10:08 PM. |
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07-09-2006, 12:31 AM | #32 | |||
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07-09-2006, 08:37 AM | #33 |
Salt Miner
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I believe I have been able to translate the last entry in Sauron’s personal journal in Númenor. Perhaps that might throw some light on this subject?
Feel free to criticize the translation – it might be a bit loose in some places. Oh, and – take it with a light heart and a grain of salt. |
07-09-2006, 08:38 AM | #34 | |
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Fëanor was proud and arrogant already from the start and the Faithful were already faithful before they set sail. Bilbo, Frodo and Eowyn all experience some character-development (especially Frodo), true.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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07-09-2006, 09:35 AM | #35 | ||
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I am not particularly familiar with the Letters, but I think there is a quote in there stating that with the creation of Numenor and the increasing of it’s inhabitant’s lifespans, the Numenoreans were doomed to fall. So, if they didn’t fall completely during their attack on Valinor, they probably would have fallen again later. Quote:
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07-09-2006, 10:45 AM | #36 | ||
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07-09-2006, 11:29 AM | #37 | |
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07-09-2006, 01:46 PM | #38 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I think that Sauron believed that he could destroy all of the Numenoreans, and did not forsee that Eru would preserve Elendil and the rest to found the kingdoms in Middle-earth that would eventually play a large part in destroying him. Another example of "Oft Evil will shall Evil mar!"
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07-09-2006, 01:51 PM | #39 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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or (like it states above somewhere) that he thought he could distroy the faithful peple, as well as the women and children left on the island, in his own time, and didn't realise that Eru would issue the punishment so quickly, or in such a devistating maner.
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07-09-2006, 06:05 PM | #40 | |
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