01-23-2009, 04:08 PM | #21 | ||
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Actually it again deserves a new thread, but I have always wondered, would the destruction of four of the 19 lead to a "hole" in the One, draining it of some power? Would the destruction of all the 19 leave the Ruling Ring almost powerless? Quote:
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01-23-2009, 06:06 PM | #22 | |
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I can't agree with the idea that the rings completely stopped the aging process. That they greatly slowed down the process, I don't doubt, but not stopped. We know, for instance, that the bodies of Gollum and the Nazgul changed (as you pointed out) while they were in possession of the rings. Change can not exist without the passing of time. (I think it can also be argued that time can't exist without change. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between these two terms.) The changing of the body over time could probably be used as a definition for aging. Also, it wouldn't make sense that the Elves wanted to live in a completely static world. That would be unnatural for them just as it is for us (and for good reason, life couldn't exist in such a world.) So, it is unlikely that the rings were designed to bring time to a standstill. On the whole, I like your theory, Gordis. But I do have a problem with the whole issue of true "timelessness". At least while dealing with physical bodies. Once the Nazgul became wraiths, things were probably different. |
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01-23-2009, 07:43 PM | #23 | ||
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Here’s an idea that follows upon the recent discussion and yet ties back into the beginnings of the thread.
The Dwarves claimed that Celebrimbor gave one of the Seven Rings to his friend, Durin III of Khazad-dûm. Remember the Ring-spell: Three rings for the Elven kings… Seven for the Dwarf-lords… Nine for Mortal Men.Sauron planned all along to enslave the Free Peoples: the two Eruh*ni and the Dwarves. We know very little about the development of this nefarious plan: was it already fully-formed when first he approached Gil-galad and Galadriel warned that she had known no “Annatar” in the train of Aulë in Valinor? Or might a generous and heart-felt gift of the greatest of the Seven have later inspired Sauron to use the repertoire of Rings enslave not only the Elves but Dwarves – and Men – as well? Let’s work through Appendix B for the Second Age: Quote:
I think we can say that no Man possessed any of the Nine Rings until after the War between the Elves and Sauron in II 1693–1700. During the war, Sauron recovered the Seven and the Nine, presumably with the exception of Durin’s Ring, but could get no information from Celebrimbor about the disposition of the Three: he apparently assumed that Gil-galad had them, and did not perceive that Galadriel had one. Appendix B says that from ca. II 1800 onward, “The shadow falls on Númenor,” a clear indication that at least one of the Númenóreans with a Ring of Power had returned home and begun to work his Master’s evil will among the Dúnedain. My questions are these:
And finally, there is Gandalf’s discussion of the Rings with Frodo in Fellowship of the Ring, “Shadow of the Past”, Quote:
And wouldn’t that add a twist to Glorfindel’s confrontation with the Witch-king at the end of the last Battle of Fornost? Just a thought on Friday evening to spice things up… Last edited by Alcuin : 01-23-2009 at 07:49 PM. |
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01-24-2009, 08:47 AM | #24 | |
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01-24-2009, 10:27 AM | #25 | |||||||||||
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I agree. And this Numenorean was definitely a very high-ranking person to have such an influence. Quote:
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After all, the future nazgul must have stood like a sore thumb among the Island nobility. Just imagine it after a few centuries: a youthful-looking great-grandfather at the funeral of his ancient wife, grey children, greying grandchildren... After some time, the ring-wielders likely chose to settle in Middle-Earth, just to avoid curious looks - and that would bring them closer to the attention of the Elves. Their fading must have looked like a devastating disease: cancer or something - and that among the nation that never knew illness... And then the report would come that those three had not died after all, but moved to Barad-Dur. At this point their names would be erased from Numenorean chronicles, only the dark tale would remain. And the dark tale of the three Numenorean lords who had joined the Enemy proved to be very persistent: Faramir heard it, though he knew not even that Isildur took the Ring. Elrond, of course, would not be eager to reveal the Witch-King's name to anybody: it was his skeleton in the closet. It is bad PR to admit that your nephew ten times removed is now Sauron's right hand. Quote:
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01-24-2009, 03:54 PM | #26 | |||||
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I agree that the Shadow falling on Numenor coincided with the future Witch King, a man in the royal house, receiving a ring (an opinion I developed while reading your theories on the matter) along with two other Numenoreans. It could have been the lengthened lifespans of these men that was the primary thing that inspired the King, or his refusal may have been more of a consequence of the other negative influences these men had. Voluntarily laying down one's life was something done by those umm...of purer thought. Atanamir had been corrupted. I'm not really disagreeing with your suggestion, but I do think there was probably more to it than just the King seeing the exceptional lifespan of the ring-holders. |
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01-24-2009, 08:40 PM | #27 | ||||||||
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That conclusion, I think, also opens the way for the Noldorin smiths to hand a Ring over to a Númenórean; but I agree that there do not seem to be any writings, inferences, or hints of any sort that this happened. I do not doubt that Númenórean explorers and traders made their way to Eregion, and I see no reason they would be unwelcomed at Ost-in-Edhil; but I think it is a stretch. As with the Seven Rings, I think the Nine Rings had no native evil effect when the M*rdain made them: Gandalf believed they were dangerous to Mortals because of the power they could wield using the Rings, but he did not call them evil in and of themselves. My question on this front is, can we rule out the M*rdain giving a Ring to a Númenórean? Very nearly, perhaps; much less so, I think, with Durin III. In turning two of the Three Rings over to Gil-galad, and Nenya over to Galadriel, Celebrimbor was, in essence, confessing his sins.
But among real-world Mortal Men, there is always that little bit of pride that hangs on, and I think it may have been in Celebrimbor, too: the next-greatest Ring of Power in possession of the Elves was the greatest of the Seven. I think he sought to hide it, too, from Sauron: Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond and C*rdan, and all their counselors, would have no means of knowing this unless Celebrimbor told them: I don’t think he did. When Unfinished Tales was published, CJR Tolkien added an in-line parenthetical note to the essay “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn”: Quote:
There is another way in which Durin III could have come into legitimate possession of his Ring, and that is from escapees of the M*rdain whom he rescued. Elrond had been sent from Lindon to Eregion by Gil-galad with an expeditionary force to try to keep Sauron at bay; when that failed (op. cit.), Quote:
I am uncertain whether Tolkien left this situation deliberately vague, whether the decisive text remains unpublished (or at least unknown to me), if he himself were undecided, or if he is telling us that the Wise either didn’t know how it came into the possession of Durin III, or that Men either never learned it of them or else failed to successfully pass along what they learned to later generations, a failing all too common by the end of the Third Age. My instinct, for whatever it’s worth, is that Durin III did indeed obtain the Ring legitimately, and that this was a further cause for Sauron to hate Durin’s Folk. This is a very long post, so before I’m out of space, I’d like to return to Rings and Men. First, thank you, CAB, for your compliment on my essay. Now I have another question to ponder: did the Númenóreans even know what the War between the Elves and Sauron was about? I can imagine that Gil-galad chose not to tell Minastir about the Rings of Power. I don’t believe he concealed that information: it would be dishonest – and quite dangerous – to conceal from one’s critical ally the nature and causes of the war, even if they were not widely spoken abroad: but perhaps that information was not so secret in the middle of the Second Age. We are not told. But in context of what we know about Elves, it just doesn’t stand to reason, in my opinion, that Gil-galad would fail to tell Minastir what was really going on. (It also begs the question, did the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm know the reasons for the war? They were the closest allies of the Elves of Eregion, and other than “Annatar,” the deepest in their counsels before the war.) Before you make a judgment on this, consider that Boromir and Faramir knew quite a bit about Sauron and the One Ring: when Sam let slip that Boromir wanted the Enemy’s Ring in Henneth Annûn, Faramir put all the pieces of the puzzle together immediately. (His subsequent “I could have It now” display is remarkably similar to Aragorn’s at the Prancing Pony.) Boromir and Faramir are at the tail-end of Dúnedain upper-class lore and knowledge: their forebears knew far more, especially before their fall midway through the Second Age. Besides that, the Dwarves knew about the Rings, too: Thorin knew about it, and so did Glóin, who was cousin to both Thorin and Dáin II: the rulers and nobility of Middle-earth, the educated folk, knew about the Rings of Power. They might not have had complete or accurate information, but they knew about them. If Minastir and his generals and admirals knew why they were fighting, then why would any right-thinking Númenórean in Middle-earth in the Second Age not long after a war over Rings of Power accept a ring from a stranger? Even if the average Second Age Dúnedain sailor, infantryman, or archer knew little about the Rings of Power, the Dúnedain nobility almost certainly did. Now, I can imagine that one or two Númenórean noblemen might have been led astray by dreams of wealth and power, but at least one of them, the greatest of them, might not have been so tempted. That brings me back to Gandalf’s comments to Frodo, Quote:
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If the Númenóreans knew about the One Ring, then why didn’t Ar-Pharazôn demand that Sauron deliver up the One Ring to him when Sauron “surrendered” to him? Last edited by Alcuin : 01-24-2009 at 08:52 PM. |
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01-25-2009, 03:42 AM | #28 | ||||||||||||
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One had to know a lot about the nature of the Dwarves, not about the nature of the rings, to predict that the folk of Aule wouldn't be much affected. I doubt even Sauron understood it beforehand. Experimenting on his good friend and ally Durin like on a laboratory mouse seems too evil for Celebrimbor. For all he knew, ANYTHING could happen to the Dwarf - especially taking into account the possible long-term effects. Indeed, if one monitored Men with the Nine, at the beginning everything must have seemed perfect - the transformation into Elves seemed achieved. But later... well... you know. So Celebrimbor couldn't have predicted anything for sure. Quote:
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Yes, the Rings were not really evil all by themselves, the Elves made them with good intent - but they made them for Elves, not Men or Dwarves. With an unspecific target any remedy may turn to poison - or may be ineffective. It reminds me of a story that has happened with one of my friends and her cat. My not-too-bright friend once tried to give her cat a human contraceptive. Being a human physician, she calculated the mass ratios very carefully, so the dose was OK for the cat's weight. Yet the poor cat almost died of it. The veterinary who saved the cat explained that some human drugs are pure poison for felines in any quantity - while for pigs human drugs are OK. Quote:
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I can devise at least three schemes to give the Ring to Durin without arising any suspicion. Note that Sauron, being the notorious deceiver (which I am not) could probably devise 300 schemes, one more brilliant than another. Here are mine: 1.Sauron could pose as one of the surviving Mirdain, who came to deliver a Ring to Durin "at the late Celebrimbor's bidding". 2. Sauron could come to Durin in the guise of Celebrimbor himself, while the latter was sitting in a dungeon. Celebrimbor's fate remained unknown for some time, before his body was exposed on a pole by Sauron. (Remember that Saruman had no trouble to impersonate Gandalf - so Sauron could easily impersonate Celebrimbor, whom he knew so well). 3. Sauron could deliberately let one of the mortally wounded Mirdain escape with a ring to Moria. The Elf dies, his ring naturally goes to Durin, and no one suspects a trap. Quote:
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Only one thing seems certain to me: Durin wouldn't accept the Ring from Sauron if the latter was not concealing his identity. Thus there had to be some devious scheme used. Quote:
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I am not speculating. See this quote: Quote:
The Elves had deceived their main allies and continued to keep the secret as long as they could - I guess till Sauron has reappeared alive and hale after the Downfall and attacked Gondor. "But how?" asks Isildur. "Hasn't Sauron perished with Numenor?" "Well, he has this Ring, you know" reply the Elves guiltily. "No, in fact I don't know. What Ring?" Right before the Last Alliance Gil-Galad must have confessed his sins to Elendil and Isildur and told them the truth about the Rings and about the ancient War. Perhaps guilt made the Elves join the Alliance in the first place. From then on the Ring-Lore had become general knowledge, but even that was slowly becoming forgotten by 3018. What did the Elves tell Tar-Minastir when they asked for help? Most likely that the Evil Sauron had attacked Eregion coveting the works of the Mirdain - which was the truth, but not the whole truth. The future nazgul had no idea what rings they received and from whom. Rings of power made by Elves - that would be all. Nothing sinister there: Elven works of craft were normally wholesome and highly prized things. They had no idea that their Rings were subject to the Ruling Ring, and I guess they were quite surprised to discover it. And discover it they did, but too late for them. Naturally they couldn't broadcast their predicament, but their feelings towards the Elves who had deceived them would turn to hatred. As the future nazgul were high Numenorean lords, their attitude towards the Elves would influence their compatriots - and here we come to the “inexplicable” estrangement of Numenoreans from Elves right after they had been allies in the victorious war. Last edited by Gordis : 02-26-2009 at 10:03 AM. |
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01-25-2009, 06:52 AM | #29 | ||||||||||
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<sigh> And after I waxed all so eloquent… Ah, well, it is a good thing that this is not my day job!
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The essay continues, Quote:
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Well, so much for that speculative venture. About the only thing I think I can salvage is that it was fun, and that I think there was a lot of traffic – what we modern folk call “business” – going on in and through and around Eregion. There had to be, or the Elves there would not have been wealthy, as I think they plainly were: Tolkien separately enumerates the acquisition of wealth and power as attributes of the Seven and the Nine, and as Thrór told Thráin his son of his Ring, “it needs gold to breed gold.” ([RotK], Appendix A, “Durin’s Folk”) But maybe I can pull a chestnut out of the fire. The Great East Road that ran through The Shire was of extreme antiquity, going back to the First Age. It had been constructed by the Dwarves as a means of travel from Nogrod and Belegost to the mines of the Iron Hills. Eregion’s capital Ost-in-Edhil was probably along the road that originally ran from Nogrod and Belegost to Khazad-dûm: in at least one telling of the tale, Galadriel founded Eregion around II 700. It’s always struck me as curious that Rivendell was “secret,” yet it was quite near the main east-west route across north-western Middle-earth. I think I can explain that now. I think the text is clear that Nogrod was completely ruined at the end of the First Age: the maps show the Gulf of Lhûn where Nogrod once lay. Belegost lay to the south (Fonstad in Atlas of Middle-earth has Belegost more than 150 miles south of Nogrod as the crow flies, doubtless much further for travelers), and if it was not completely destroyed (I think that’s the correct inference), then it was heavily damaged. We know that most of the survivors of these two great cities joined Durin’s people in Khazad-dûm early in the Second Age. That means that the Great East Road was little traveled for a while. The principal trade route of Eriador must have shifted south, from Lindon across Sarn Ford, through Tharbad (where the Númenóreans later built and maintained an enormous causeway-and-bridge that survived nearly but not quite intact until Boromir attempted to use it getting to Rivendell: that’s where he lost his horse), and on to Khazad-dûm, Lórien, Greenwood, and finally the Iron Hills. Eregion and Ost-in-Edhil lay along the road from Tharbad to Khazad-dûm. The Dwarves of Khazad-dûm controlled both the Redhorn Gate (Pass) over the mountains and the route under and through the mountains; besides that, they were themselves a major center for manufacturing, trade, and commerce. Sauron and his army were apt to overlook a secluded valley, even near the old road. I don’t suppose he went in for such things as beautiful little valleys only the local Elves knew about. Once ensconced, I’m sure Elrond began covering his tracks, and did everything he could to keep it secret, at which Tolkien repeatedly indicates he was quite successful. Quote:
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01-25-2009, 10:23 AM | #30 | |||
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Edit: Maybe, Gordis, you weren't suggesting that the Elves went to this extreme? Quote:
Alcuin, I like your idea about the trade route moving south in the Second Age and about this being part of the reason that Rivendell's location was able to remain a secret. It really is a shame that Tolkien didn't give us more information regarding the economies in Middle Earth. I prefer to consider Middle Earth as "realistically" as possible, but it is difficult given that trade in some ways seems to have been absolutely negligible (we hear very little about it, different groups of people seem very isolated, etc.) and yet in other ways it seems absolutely necessary to explain what we see (could these very advanced societies possibly have existed without trade and the exchange of ideas that accompanies it?). I had an idea a while back that I hoped would provide some evidence that the economies in Middle Earth were more advanced than might otherwise be thought. I think I will start a new thread based on this idea within the next week or so. Given your knowledge concerning these kinds of matters in the real world, Alcuin, I hope you will find the time to comment on it. Gordis, of course you surely know that I am always looking for your input. Last edited by CAB : 01-25-2009 at 11:37 AM. |
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01-25-2009, 08:28 PM | #31 | |||||||
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As CAB said, I really didn't think that Celebrimbor ever closed his borders to Men, such as Numenorean woodcutters or soldiers from Vinyalonde, and certainly he did have wonderful relations with Moria Dwarves. I was thinking more in term of noble Numenorean visitors to Ost-in Edhil (as we were discussing the possibility of delivering a Ring to a Numenorean lord prior to 1697). I still don't think there were many of them, if any. I imagine that in the SA there was a sort of short sight-seeing routine for the noble Numenoreans visiting ME. For early visitors, like Aldarion or Veantur, to visit Lindon and say "Hi" to Gil-Galad and to great-...-great uncle Elrond would be a must, then to sail to Vinyalonde and take care of it. But I am not sure any of them ventured as far as Eregion, especially after Celebrimbor's rebellion in 1400, considering the strained relations of Eregion with Lindon. I imagine Celebrimbor might refuse a visa for a Numenorean lord, just to spite Gil-Galad, who had refused a visa for Annatar. Also the Island Men were potentially dangerous for Annatar. They would tell about him in Numenor, and there were still a lot of Elves from Tol-Eressea visiting the Island. The news of the Maia Aulendil could easily travel to Valinor itself, maybe even to Aule, and what is worse, the reply could travel back the same way: the next visitor could bring a warning against him. Then, it may be just my impression, but it seems the Numenoreans of note rarely sailed to ME between the times of Aldarion and Ciryatan. We know that "After Aldarion's death Ancalime neglected all his policies and gave no further aid to Gil-galad"- The Line of Elros. It was the young Ciryatan and his followers who resumed coming to ME on a regular basis. I guess they visited not only Lindon, but also Rivendell and traveled along the Great Road, saw the Great Barrows and the Hithaeglir, saw the ruins of Eregion and probably founded a settlement in Tharbad. But it was already after 1700. Quote:
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The emissaries must have come around SA 2029 - the year when Tar-Ciryatan ceded the Scepter to Tar-Atanamir (UT), because Akallabeth tells us that "these things took place in the days of Tar-Ciryatan the Shipbuilder, and of Tar-Atanamir his son". As the conference couldn't have lasted for dozens of years, it should then be placed around 2029. It could be that Ciryatan, confronted by the Messengers, laid down the scepter to allow his more determined son to reply in his stead (mirroring the situation with Tar-Meneldur and Aldarion). Anyway, by 2029, the future nazgul would have had their Rings for about 200-300 years and already had time to realize the existence of the Ruling Ring and Elves's betrayal. Likely Atanamir listened to them more readily than Ciryatan, if, of course, he was not one of them himself. This quote about Ar-Pharazon not knowing about the Rings struck me hard when I first found it - I will never forget the impression. It opens a totally knew insight into the Nazgul question and makes us doubt whether the Eldar were indeed as noble as LOTR portrays them. Especially Gil-Galad the Elven King of whom the harpers sadly sing.... Yeah. Well, at least he had an occasion to repent before he died. Still "where he dwelleth none can say..." maybe still in Mandos along with Feanor and K. Elrond was also guilty as hell - after all, he was close kin to Numenoreans... Quote:
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01-25-2009, 10:15 PM | #32 | ||||||
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Ciryatan left life of his own free will, as Númenóreans were permitted to do, and as Aragorn did; I think that means that, whatever his faults, he had not completely rebelled against the Valar. Atanamir was in open rebellion. And I might add, that rebellion was in fact a rebellion against Eru, as I believe the Faithful maintained. This brings up an interesting point, though. Tar-Ciryatan kicked his father off the throne in II 1869. The “shadow falls upon Númenor” about II 1800. I think it is worth considering whether Tar-Minastir, enemy of Sauron and ally of the Eldar, smelled a rat or two in his court. I wonder if he might have been about to banish – or even unmask – a Ring-bearing Dúnadan or two in his court? I don’t think we could ever prove that, but the timing and situation seem interesting. It makes sense that the three Dúnedain with Rings of Power had risen to prominence in Númenórean society by then. Their malign influence was felt everywhere, and I think it stands to reason that they instigated both Tar-Ciryatan’s coup against his father and Tar-Atanamir’s apostasy. |
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01-25-2009, 11:51 PM | #33 | |
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01-26-2009, 06:17 PM | #34 | |||||||
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Here is, as far as I know, the last version of Glorfindel's history: Quote:
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Most likely, Ciryatan took part in the War (btw, perhaps he was known as Ciryatur then?), he built and captained fleets, exploited ME, helped people to enrich themselves. So he must have been very popular in Numenor and had a lot of followers (old comrades-in-arms, sailors, workers of shipyards etc.), while Minastir, who spent his days locked in a tower gazing West, must have had none to defend him. Ciryatan and Atanamir seem to be of like mind in all matters (both were "proud and greedy of wealth", UT), only the latter went further in everything, including apostasy. Ciryatan was "mighty", but Atanamir became "Great". I guess Ciryatan indeed left his scepter to Atanamir willingly, as he saw in him worthy progeny and successor. The interesting thing is that the transfer of the Scepter must have coincided with the arrival of the Ambassy from Valinor. There might be something in it. Quote:
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And here, Alcuin, I come to the main problem I have with your theory. In your theory, Ciryatan and Atanamir were constantly "influenced" to do this and "persuaded" to do that by the future nazgul, all the while being kept in the dark about the reason for all of it, the Rings. Yet, neither of these two kings strikes me as a person easily influenced, or easily duped. They were proud, arrogant and greedy with little moral inhibitions, born to rule and enjoying it immensely, yet highly intelligent and perceptive, able to see into the hearts of Men. You agree that their minds became poisoned against the Elves, yet the Ring-wielders who allegedly persuaded them, couldn't possibly tell them of the Elves's betrayal: it would mean to disclose the Rings. And once someone like Atanamir learns or even suspects that one of his followers has a Ring of Power giving immortality, he would kill to obtain it, he would do anything to obtain it. And look at it from Sauron's POV. No question it would have been in his interests to ensnare the King of Numenor himself. He managed to make a gift of a Ring to one of the princes of the Royal house, you say. Couldn't he tell him "And here is another one, a gift for your King. Please deliver it with my compliments". Would a future nazgul refuse? Would the King refuse, especially if he sees the beneficial effects a similar ring has on his kinsman? I guess either Ciryatan or Atanamir had joined the merry fellowship of the Nine. Last edited by Gordis : 01-26-2009 at 06:26 PM. |
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01-26-2009, 07:00 PM | #35 | |
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01-26-2009, 07:19 PM | #36 | |||
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Suppose for a moment that you were correct, and Ciryatan and Atanamir had become Nazgûl. No one noticed that they didn’t age normally? How then do you explain that Ciryatan gave up his scepter and then died a few years later? How do you explain that Atanamir refused to retire, became “unmanned” (suffered dementia, an all-too-common affliction of extreme old age), and died “perforce” (i.e., by force of nature)? Moreover, “embalmed” like an Egyptian means that the internal organs were removed. The Egyptians also poured pitch into cadavers and cured the hollowed bodies for 60 days covered in natron (sodium carbonate decahydrate, Na2CO3•10H2O, or soda ash), a powerful dessicant (a chemical that soaks up water). Lots of people are involved in this process: it’s labor-intensive and time-consuming, and whatever the ancient Egyptians believed, there isn’t much left of the body at the end except the shell. Everyone would notice if Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir were not properly gutted and salted like so much dried fish and buried with lots of pomp and circumstance. All the courtiers, family members, hangers-on, soldiers, sages, and – most importantly – the emerging opposition party of the Faithful would have noticed if the kings had not aged normally. Finally, which of Nazgûl do you suppose to be so humble, so self-effacing as to give up his throne, surrender his scepter to another? That’s not a characteristic of a man with magically-enhanced charisma, intelligence, strength, and stamina – not to mention a magically-enhanced ego. It doesn’t make any sense. If a Nazgûl or proto-Nazgûl had control of the throne of Númenor, he wouldn’t give it up! Besides if this were the case, instead of saying that Tar-Ciryatan gave up his scepter, died, and was buried, but Tar-Atanamir clung to life until he lost himself and fell from his throne “unmanned,” don’t you think Tolkien would have made some kind of comment about it? Be reasonable. It’s not like this would be a niggling little item in the tales, is it? -|- Quote:
There is a parallel in Gondor. Narmacil I and Calmacil of Gondor, the sons of Atanatar II Alcarin, ruled one after another as king of Gondor: Narmacil had no issue, so Calmacil succeeded him. Both used Calmacil’s son Minalcar as regent. Minalcar was an extremely vigorous and effective regent, and upon his succession, he took the throne-name Rómendacil II. As Regent of Gondor, Minalcar Rómendacil was known as the Karma-kundo (“Guardian of the Helm”). And since the Kings of Númenor refused to surrender their scepters or give up their lives, several of them must have suffered the same fate of dementia as Atanamir: this was probably a well-established office by the days of Minalcar. Ancalimon almost certainly had to perform this duty for his father, Tar-Atanamir, when he reached his dotage. The entry for his son, Telemmaitë, in the “Line of Elros” in Unfinished Tales says that Quote:
I think that the context of the story strongly suggests that Minastir was either ruled jointly with his aunt or, more likely, as regent in change of the expedition to Middle-earth. The Númenóreans had never attempted anything like it: it required specialized knowledge, a thorough grasp of logistics, and considerable military skill. It would have been on the order of the Invasion of Normandy – launched from New York! It was a full-time job, and whomever was in charge would effectively be acting as a king or viceroy – or regent. The evidence strongly argues that Minastir was given plenipotentiary powers in this effort, but his aunt retained her power, and probably her veto if he got out of line. Minastir was responsible for the expedition in II 1700. Tar-Telperiën gave up her throne and died in II 1731. Now, what would little Númenórean school-children learn during the reign of Tar-Minastir, that Tar-Telperiën was responsible for the expedition, or that Tar-Minastir was? And in comparison to having a Ringwraith - or two - for a king, whether Minastir led the expedition to Middle-earth or just its massive preparations (like the American General George C Marshall, who led and coordinated the American war effort in World War II for all theaters in which we participated, but was never allowed to leave Washington) as king, regent, co-ruler, or just the Queen’s Nephew and Heir, is a niggling point. |
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01-27-2009, 08:35 AM | #37 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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First let us deal with minor points.
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And there is another explanation possible: namely that at the time of writing of LOTR appendices, Telperien was supposed to surrender the Scepter earlier - and Minastir was supposed to be already King in 1697. Then Minastir would only be responsible for the decision to help Gil-galad (quite natural for him) and automatically would take credit for the preparation of the fleet, even if all the actual work was done by underlings. |
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02-12-2009, 04:51 PM | #38 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Why is it important? Because original entry in TY makes either Tar-Minastir or Tar-Ciryatan a nazgul. Look here: in 1700 king Tar-Minastir sends the fleet to ME. In 2251 (551 years later) his son Ciryatan surrenders the scepter to Atanamir. Someone here has lived too long! Was it intended, or was it a mistake? Maybe it was, but is it enough to correct the canonic text? Last edited by Gordis : 03-16-2009 at 12:55 PM. |
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02-20-2009, 05:29 PM | #39 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
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Thus she was not born in 521 (UT) nor was Tar-Meneldur born in 543 (UT). However, can The Line of Elros be altered somewhat to fit the published Lord of the Rings, and still work? In what time I have had, I've done a little work, but I have not brought the revisions all the way through the line of Kings yet, and I would be interested to see how you, or anyone else, would go about such a project. The framework to build around is Tolkien-published text. Departure from Unfinished Tales or other unpublished description is allowed of course, and necessary in part, but (for example) where I could I retained details, like altering Tar-Meneldur's birth by 22 years (based on UT) but working with the Appendix in Return of the King for the date. I generally tried to work within, or close to, the guidelines set out by The Line of Elros (or LE) for example. Last edited by Galin : 02-25-2009 at 02:00 PM. |
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02-20-2009, 06:04 PM | #40 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Well it sounds most interesting, Galin! Could you perhaps share your time-scheme when it is ready?
I wholly agree: App. A should take precedence over LE. After all, Tolkien COULD revise the LOTR text for the second edition if he so wished, but he didn't. A published text should take precedence anyway. As for UT the Line of Elros, the important thing is the dating and how sure it is. Was it written before or after the App. A? I have seen some lists dating it as late as 1968, IIRC. What seems curious about this text, is its train-timetable-like appearance: too neat, every early King living almost exactly 400 years, no accidents, no premature deaths. The age difference between siblings is always very close to 10-12 years. See here Line of Elros UT It just doesn't happen in real life. Last edited by Gordis : 02-20-2009 at 08:23 PM. |
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