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03-16-2004, 11:32 AM | #21 |
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First of all, thank you, azalea, you've done a wonderful job on the Foreword and Prologue! And I'm also ejoying the commets of the others (yep, even yours, Val, at the bottom of the page )
Just to add a couple of things: 1. About elves remaining in ME. I agree with you, but I'd add something. I believe it's in Letters where Tolkien speaks pejoratively about Shakespeare's elves... He wanted to make it clear that his inspiration for the elves hadn't been on Shakespeare, but in other sources (cannot remember now). However, when I read in the prologue that bit of elves STILL here and I know all that stuff about the fading of the elves (that is all about LOTR and in HOME X), my conclusion is that those remaning elves (that obviously would have faded, but would be still here) are relatives to Shakespeare's elves and all those "spirits" that populate English tales. I see it as a remnant of Tolkien's original intention of building a mytholgy for the UK. 2. Concerning Pipeweed. I just wanted to say that I love how his explanation of this odd habit of the shirefolk in the prologue uses exactly the same words that Merry uses to explain it to Theoden Since Merry is supposed to be the author of the lore-book about herbs and pipeweed, I think it is another way of showing how this all story has "real" sources. Well, I'll re-read again the thread, since I'm sure there is a lot still to say.
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03-16-2004, 11:39 AM | #22 |
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Oh yeah! I also had a thought about the pipeweed: I hadn't really thought about how it came from Numenor, in the West... and you conclude he's saying it's a 'heavenly' gift of sorts. I wonder though, if he was referring to how tobacco originally came to Europe from the Americas...??
Also, I hope everyone makes the connection: Tobold... Old Toby... Tobacco???
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03-16-2004, 12:10 PM | #23 | |
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03-16-2004, 12:11 PM | #24 |
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Right. As an imaginary "real" history i thought a way of JRRT explaining things like potatoes and tobacco was that tobacco came from the far west (which would be the far, far east of a round world?), then died out sometime in later ages until reintroduced in the 16th and 17th centuries.
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03-16-2004, 12:56 PM | #25 | |
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03-16-2004, 02:50 PM | #26 | |
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03-17-2004, 12:32 AM | #27 |
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Earniel -- your comments about the Red Book made me think how funny it is that the actual book is the very same way, as I mentioned about the Note on the Text -- so many different editions and printings, each of which may or may not have very small changes or differences and mistakes! How funny!
After re-reading Tolkien's words about conducting the war, I am now quite confident in standing by my assertion that he refers there to the War of the Ring. I can go into why, but I think everyone might want to be spared of another long-winded explanation from me! Or maybe I'm not being "considerate," just tired. Valandil -- on your second point: I think I see what you mean, but his use of the words "if it were an allegory [of WWII]" to me means "if it were to exactly represent what happened, this is how it would look." He then goes on to describe it. So if he's describing how his own allegory of WWII would look, wouldn't it make sense that those would have been his own observations of the war? That's how I'm looking at it. It may be through a muddy glass, though. Representative -- no, I don't think so, just exhibiting traits that mirror to an extent. The "dwarf-like" partly gave me that opinion, then he says the Stoors were less shy of men, and the Fallohides were more friendly with the elves, and when described seem to have traits that are more elf-like than the others (for instance, taller). In fact, they sound almost like Hobbit versions of the Mirkwood elves. But then it says they mingled with the others, and so you wouldn't find a "pure blooded" one of any of them, but the different strains running through the different families. I think he wanted Frodo especially to have elf-like traits, and in the Appendices, there's the line about Frodo having a great natural ability for Elvish. That was accomplished by he and Bilbo having a lot of Took in them. I don't think they were supposed to be representative, just a little like them, whether by chance or because they tended to hang out with them (the influence of dwarves on hole-dwelling -- or did they hang out with them BECAUSE they both were fond of being underground? The influence of elves on the artistry of the Fallohides -- or were they friendly with the elves BECAUSE of their penchant for that kind of thing?) I think Tolkien even bothered with this (besides giving an explanation for why the Tooks were more adventurous) was to give the Shire citizens some depth (as he did with everything) and to add another genealogical component to their makeup -- just as the average British child reading it might have a mix of Nordic, German, Anglo, etc., heritage. Oh, and thanks for your thoughtful note to newbies, Val. (That reminds me, I forgot to put the Note to Newbies on the first post -- oops, I'll have to add that!) I'll respond more tomorrow -- too tired! (where's the sleepy smiley? ) |
03-17-2004, 12:55 AM | #28 | |
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03-17-2004, 08:53 AM | #29 |
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In his foreward, I think Tolkien was clarifying that there was NO allegory whatsoever in the book that was intentional, but he more or less welcomed us to read into it. I didn't look to hard for any specifically because I'd already been told i wouldn't find any. And i think that was the importance of telling us about it in the beginning. Plus, as any great author would confess to, elements of the story are most likely related to events from Tolkien's own life, but that doesn't mean that they necassarily represent that event. I don't believe the War of the Ring was supposed to be WWII, but I'm sure that Tolkien's descriptions were affected by his knowlege of that war.
Concerning the Suspension of Reality: When Tolkien states that he is "reporting" the tale, I love it. This one sentence doesn't do much to actually convince the reader to forget all (s)he had previously learned to make the story possible, but I see it more as a way to set the tone, partly with his dull sense of humor he makes reference to, and to keep the foreword and prolouge (sections often ignored) tied in with the story itself. He's making the book make sense, and be effective. (Frodo wouldn't have seemed "the unlikely hero" had the reader not been told of usual hobbit additudes.) He's establishing his own reality that he was lucky enough to be a part of somehow, and I want a part of it. He's giving all the background information so we can get the most from the story. He's setting the precedent (as the god of fantasy does) of how closely fantasy should relate to reality, and here are his guidelines before the story even begins.
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03-17-2004, 04:49 PM | #30 | |
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03-18-2004, 05:00 AM | #31 |
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Great job, Azalea. You brought up lots of things I hadn't thought of re: the Prologue.
I also see it as bridging the Hobbit and LOTR by putting them into the broad picture of the same history. We'll probably come back to this, but making the transition from a kids' fairy tale (where "realism" doesn't matter too much) to one where everything has to be self-consistent is the main challenge for the first few chapters of LOTR. The Prologue implies that hobbits and elves still exist, thus linking with the kids' Hobbit book, but then grounds it all against this self-consistent backdrop. It also primes us to deal with lots of other stories (like the elves) and gets us ready to be gobsmacked by the scale of each culture and its mythos. On a negative note, the first time I read LOTR I started with the Prologue and got bored stiff after about five pages, gave up, and didn't read it for another year. For this reason, I always recommend to people not to read it until they're finished, unless they haven't read the Hobbit, in which case it's worth reading just the recap of that story. I agree that it's interesting that he "gives away the ending" to some extent, but that displays supreme confidence in the creation. It actually doesn't spoil it at all, since the fact that the goodies win would hardly come as a surprise to anyone. |
03-18-2004, 12:49 PM | #32 | ||
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The Fate of Elladan and Elrohir
From the Prologue
Quote:
We have from the Letter 154 Quote:
If the sons of Elrond had until their father left ME their choice to either become one of the Eldar or Atani, what do you suppose their choice was? I have always thought that because they chose to remain in ME when their father left, I supposed that they had accepted to become Mortal but the words of the draft letter to Peter Hastings makes me wonder a little bit. How could they delay their choice?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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03-18-2004, 02:28 PM | #33 |
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It could be that they chose mortality, but continued to live with the elves. Or maybe they chose to retain their immortality, but stayed on. That's kind of what I was getting at -- I thought ships continued to depart even after Celeborn left. It's just that all of the oldest elves had gone. The "younger" ones may have stayed on, and (I like to think ) maybe even still "existed" when Tolkien wrote this, just hidden, living secretly in deep woods. But then there's the whole issue of "fading" which gets confusing (for me anyway). But maybe faded elves are still here, just unseen.
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03-18-2004, 02:32 PM | #34 | |
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Re: The Fate of Elladan and Elrohir
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And yeah... if you read all this stuff in the Prologue before you know the story and read the books for the first time, you have NO IDEA what he's talking about and NO CHANCE of keeping up with the names... so in some ways, he's really not giving away anything to new readers... just providing some extra enjoyment to re-readers!
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 03-18-2004 at 02:34 PM. |
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03-18-2004, 02:54 PM | #35 | ||
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From LOTR: The Númenorean Kings Quote:
It just makes me wonder.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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03-18-2004, 03:22 PM | #36 |
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Probably grasping at straws here, but what if "with him" didn't mean "in the same boat," necessarily? So they had to make their choice, but they could stay on after he left, thus delaying the choice. But eventually they had to either take a boat, or become mortal. Again, just a wild speculation on my part. It probably is a true inconsistancy, at which I'm hardly surprised, considering all the info flying around.
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03-18-2004, 03:23 PM | #37 | |
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It depends on how literally we take "pass with him"--many take this as literally that they must be on the same ship with Elrond. I'm not so sure that that is what Tolkien means. To pass with him beyond the cirlces of the world doesn't necessarily mean to be physically present in the same time and space breathing the same air as Elrond. It can be more general than that, and mean that they make the same choice he did--to be Elvish and so leave Middle Earth and be with Elrond while the circles of the world remain in Valinor. Thus "with" is more general than "Physically present". That's my .02 anyway Forkbeard |
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03-18-2004, 04:40 PM | #38 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-18-2004, 05:37 PM | #39 |
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Since I went into the Fellowship fresh from The Hobbit, I pead the Prologue and ate it up. I was like a lost hobbit who had just realized he had missed out on all the stories in his youth.
As for the children of Elrond, I don't think it was a literal having to leave "with him" when he goes, but a 'with him' in joining him in the west when they left. Which brings up the bit about Cirdan and the 'last ship'.
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03-19-2004, 03:01 PM | #40 | |
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