The N-word and ghetto sadness/stupidity

[Spock]

Well another 10 points for A.E. for starting a topic thread that can turn ugly very easily. It is good that he put forward his position so clearly and explained that mainly BOB crime is the biggest problem (I think I got that out of his post).

Let not anyone try to 'top' one who is immersed in this topic and knows of what he speaks. Dialogue and questions but please do not presume to understand as AE does.

thus endeth the Epistle for Sunday

[Grey_Wolf]

You are welcome, The Telcontarion.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Spock

Well another 10 points for A.E. for starting a topic thread that can turn ugly very easily. It is good that he put forward his position so clearly and explained that mainly BOB crime is the biggest problem (I think I got that out of his post).

Let not anyone try to 'top' one who is immersed in this topic and knows of what he speaks. Dialogue and questions but please do not presume to understand as AE does.

thus endeth the Epistle for Sunday

Excuse me, I think not. AE has his own perspective and he certainly doesn't have all the facts as I have illustrated, but no one in the world can have a postion that cannot be questioned and debated. I for one staunchly disagree and as a black person and an activist, living in one of the most notoriously violent places in brooklyn NY, most commonly known as the STUY , I can tell you the positives far out way the negitives. I think AE is understandbly hurt and disappointed, but is dead wrong. He can look at the facts that I presented in my first reply here and see for himself. Infact I am very eagor to hear what he has to say about what I have stated.

Matter of fact Spock, tell me what you think of the argument I made.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

It is how we are controlled on the surface, so they can carry out their agenda; divide and conquer.

Thats an old old argument and one IMO doesn't hold water in this day and age and this country.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

In jamaica, the Prime Minister is black, the police commissioner is black and most every important person in the country is black......

The country is and was Black, so this part of your statement makes sense ?

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Another epiphany was that in jamaica we did not have the problem of crime, guns and drugs in our communities like here, not on the same scale.

It can't be on the same scale, Jamaica is much smaller and so are its cities.The corruption and crime (been to Kingston lately) are constantly in the news there (CNN isn't interested in showing the world) .


Bed-Sty or Fort Apache are two of the worst areas for crime in NYC or elsewhere for that matter. But let us not forget Brighton Beach (immigrant and international crime).

And I am really tired of people blaming the US or the CIA or some other such American institution, for the worlds ills.

Robert McGube and Jean P. Arastieds need not comment.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally posted bySpock
Thats an old old argument and one IMO doesn't hold water in this day and age and this country.
Really, not that it matters how old it is, but please state or preferably cite where you have heard this before.

The country is and was Black, so this part of your statement makes sense ?
I don't understand that comment, the point being made was that because of our role models we have a different outlook. what the hell do you mean the country is black.



It can't be on the same scale, Jamaica is much smaller and so are its cities.The corruption and crime (been to Kingston lately) are constantly in the news there (CNN isn't interested in showing the world) .
what? percentage wise, ok. culturally ok, it was not something glorified ok, even by those who practiced it ok.


Bed-Sty or Fort Apache are two of the worst areas for crime in NYC or elsewhere for that matter. But let us not forget Brighton Beach (immigrant and international crime).
Point being? My point is that there is stiil good, I sit down in internet cafes in hood and talk about the issues with many amazing people in the community (stereo types is just that - you are talking about people here), I have never been disrespected. I walk around in flip flops and a genes shorts and a t-shirt with shades on, while every one else is wearing nikes and tims long genes and t-shirts in the heat of summer and no one has ever challenged me. If you dress like a gangster thats the energy you pull towards you. People pass me on the streets and say hello sir, they are never rude (well hardly), the like to see me because it makes them fel comfortable, because they no they can be at ease and be themselves and not worry about me ever harming them. but some punk with his pants around his ass, who through fear and peer pressure, might feel he has something to prove and the older Gs or his peers might have to put on their masks (their prententions) and it becomes a totally different atmosphere. Another point, do you know that country music is the most popular form of music in the land, yet rap and hip hop is everywhere, why. I say it is by design to keep the status quo and paradigm...the harmful stereo types coming.

And I am really tired of people blaming the US or the CIA or some other such American institution, for the worlds ills.
I don't care what you are tired of, people are dieing ok, people are dieing. I am tired of that, and I wanted it stopped yesterday, matter of fact, I command it!!!

Robert McGube and Jean P. Arastieds need not comment.

[Spock]

Temporary Closing for cool down and evaluation.

Monday 1800hrs is ETA for re-opening.

[Spock]

Topic will remain closed until TPTB have time to review and evaluate it.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Administrative Warning

Much of what I have read in this thread seems to be intelligent debate, and some seems to be flamebait. As for the latter, there is no room for it in this thread, in this forum, or on this board. The rules are clear and if any have forgotten them, I suggest you re-aquaint yourselves with them.

This thread is being reopened; it is expected that an on topic, intelligent discussion from all participants will follow. Any further violations of the rules will result in the permanent closure of the thread and other possible action for the violation.

[The Gaffer]

Cheers, spock.

I just wanted to say that I think this issue is principally one of class, not race. On reading Afro-Elf's description, if you substitute the term "working class" you get a pretty accurate description of urban Scotland, for example. Things have got worse for this large minority people in recent decades in part because social policy has not been focused on improving their opportunities to get ahead within the law.

Now, when class is defined along racial lines, you get additional problems of course. In apartheid South Africa, it seemed that the definitions of economic class were pretty close to the racial divisions. Perhaps the US has something of this situation; I can certainly see it in the UK to some extent.

Another issue is that black people come often are treated as "immigrants" yet they don't have the same ties to "back home" that, for example Indian immigrants might have, and these might be very heterogeneous. These ties provide a sense of community which is a difficult thing to engender artificially. Where it is engendered, it seems to be easily co-opted by bullies and loudmouths (compare with working class football hooligan culture in the UK).

So, framing a class issue in cultural/racial terms poses problems: you can't adequately answer it purely in racial terms.

Dunno if that makes sense...

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Cheers, spock.

I just wanted to say that I think this issue is principally one of class, not race. On reading Afro-Elf's description, if you substitute the term "working class" you get a pretty accurate description of urban Scotland, for example. Things have got worse for this large minority people in recent decades in part because social policy has not been focused on improving their opportunities to get ahead within the law.

Now, when class is defined along racial lines, you get additional problems of course. In apartheid South Africa, it seemed that the definitions of economic class were pretty close to the racial divisions. Perhaps the US has something of this situation; I can certainly see it in the UK to some extent.

Another issue is that black people come often are treated as "immigrants" yet they don't have the same ties to "back home" that, for example Indian immigrants might have, and these might be very heterogeneous. These ties provide a sense of community which is a difficult thing to engender artificially. Where it is engendered, it seems to be easily co-opted by bullies and loudmouths (compare with working class football hooligan culture in the UK).

So, framing a class issue in cultural/racial terms poses problems: you can't adequately answer it purely in racial terms.

Dunno if that makes sense...

Perfect sense actually. Nothing is happening because of race it is marginalism in order to control.

[The Telcontarion]

Though I saw the reason why the powers that be are so effective, when they do this thing is because we fall for the race game; one group feels they are under attack and the other is defensive, they end so busy pointing fingers at each other they are not able to see their real enemy.

I wonder who those Scottsmen blame for their predicament.

[Butterbeer]

It does indeed Gaffer.

But if we wish to intelligently discuss this, as Spock says potentially explosive subject, everyone has to chill, even when fuming .... *looks at the notorious Gaffer here - try and be as chilled as EL Tel mate *

My background on this outlined:

I've seen a bit of life from a few varying perspectives and met a lot of different people in lots of different situations. I have some idea about ghettos and immigrant quarters and poverty traps and narrowing horizons ....

but essentially i have to say, on the record, i cannot really claim to say i know that much in any detail, nor have i ever really experienced these worlds or but touched the surface of no opportunity clifestyle, met racism, debilitating poverty, living day in and day out in a non aspirational or impoverished community.... surrounded by others in a similiar position, creating as gaffer stated in context of Scottish inner city poverty, a loutish drink and drugs sub culture...

I know and get on with and have friends who are black,(mainly ex caribbeans - jamacians who came over in the 50's and brought blue beat and Ska .... brown half black and brown , halfcaste white, etc etc .... half chinese half english, asian (hindi, sikh, Muslim, from India Pakistan bangladesh ...you name it )

etc etc ... i know many succesful black men and women, see gradually here in the UK that you can get on and do well and be equal (and that is right of course) ...yet, from inner city london schools (one eg) we see statistics that esp young black men are having the highest drop out rates and lowest achievments ...

in terms of immigrants, i am going towards the ideal of insisting on a good standard of english and that this should be tested every year for 2 years, with aid given to improve free access to this, but it should no longer by an option to not know or be able to speak english if you wish to live or bring up generations of your family.

Multi-lingual and multi faith is fine, but whole areas where english can hardly be spoken or not well at all, leads to ghettoism in itself.

I agree the main emphasis must be from the black community itself and i do think there are cutlural patterns within communities that can be built and help. One thinks of the commerce based, large family group structure in Asian cultures, the sticter insistence from parents that their children attain education and work towards goals, and careers, and also follow some basic precepts of their religion and this gives a structure - even the use of punishment one suspects. Extended Family making money and buying better clothes and cars and houses etc is also a leader and a motivator, but it is the family group itself, in larger extended circles than we are used to in the west nowadays that makes a big difference.

God knows what GW wrote, but one thing (controversially probably) is observed time and again here where i am, and this is the relative lack of unity in the black communities here, and the quick disposition to in-fight, whereas here and now even the Hindi's and the Muslims can and will temporarily join together when needed.

Education, hard work, unity, family, these are the messages i'd preach - old fashioned huh?

Everything takes time though.

and who the Bleep am i to say what a culture or group should do?

But there are my thoughts, my good piranhas ... i mean debating-club genteels.

keep it chilled, keep it open, dialouge is good.

best, BB

[The Telcontarion]

the relative lack of unity in the black communities here, and the quick disposition to in-fight, whereas here and now even the Hindi's and the Muslims can and will temporarily join together when needed.

Well this is true to a certain extent, but it goes back again to a lack of cultural identity. Because it is certainly not the case of black people who come from africa or the caribbean. For myself, I am about to join the "old boys" (alumni charity organization) association of my high school of members living in the NY area. Every borough in this city has one and they are prominent and successful individuals who not only give back to our high school in jamaica but in the communities we live in here in the states (not alot though-it's more centered around our school and each other-lack of resources).

There is not the same attachment to the communities let alone high schools in those communities...*sigh*...the world I fear would have to change before what was broken in the african american culture is fixed.

I could say so much more...

[The Gaffer]

I think we're in danger of confusing issues here: the one of language is more associated with Asian communities, such as from India and Pakistan, yet these groups often have a strong community spirit. Most black communities, both in the UK and the US speak English as a first language.

The original topic is about marginalisation, not immigration. I agree there are issues about integration, but what if the majority doesn't want you to integrate? What if they're quite happy that your social class is forever coded into your having a different skin colour?

I agree that movement needs to come from within, though I'm not best placed to say what specifically needs to be done. On the other side, the majority needs to think what it can do to improve the trust and communication between racial groups.

My impression is that the UK is in a better position than the US in this regard: I see a lot more mixed race families on the streets of London than I did in New York, for example. However, maybe that is only because non-whites only make up around 7% of our population and the white majority doesn't feek threatened.

But we still have a long way to go. A good start would be if our police investigating racist murders of black people didn't tip off the white suspects when they were going to get raided. Little things like that.

[Butterbeer]

... barring the liddle things like that .... (agrees with the Gaffer )

no, i do not think we confuse anything sir!

this is not Oxford, nor Edinburgh, this is the daily melting pot.



yes, i agree in relative terms the UK is VERY healthy in these terms, what are the British but many indigenous genereations of Celts, Vikings, saxons, Normans, etc, Afro caribeans, Africans, Indians, banglas, Pakistanis, Arabs, europeans (the current HUGE, HUGE is i say, ... etc etc ... look at London ... look at the world, ... look at modern day UK .... census?

frank and true BOLLOCKS ... this is an undeilable fact .... for me, who cares? ...

but if you want to avoid an new modern industrial revolution type class divide, then we have to accept, at minimum a basic proviso, learn to speak english and be welcome!

why is the UK economy buoant (sp?)?

becuase we are where it is at.

in media we are taking (slowly but acceralting) control, the days of empire are gone (and good riddance) ...but we, perhaps, could be a beacon and a wise word in the ear to the armegeddonists in Muslim countries, Isreal and the USA fundamentalist right.

best, BB

[The Gaffer]

It's "buoyant", and it's that way because a) Thatcher created a permanent underclass of unemployed, thus preventing workers from being too uppity and demanding decent conditions (cf recent issues around it being three times more expensive to lay off a German car worker than a British one), and b) immigration has provided us with another underclass of people who are prepared to do crap jobs for bugger all money.

Which is also the US model, by the way.

I don't think Britain has [bloody big letters]ANY[/bloody big letters] right to preach or even whisper sagaciously in anyone's ears about Palestine. It was our fault in the first place. We're a bit like a demented old uncle, whose leering, halitosis and probing nicotine stained fingers used to make you retch as a child, but now he's raddled and incontinent nobody pays any heed to his rantings.

EDIT: forgot about the topic: Language, making 'em learn English and how to discuss cricket. Why then are these problems more severe in groups who don't have a language issue?

[The Telcontarion]

Exactly, it is not about language in the USA, most black americans speak no other language but english. So how does language issue affect them?

It is a designed system of marginalism, plane and simple. In my community for instance, there are many services that are needed and yet there is no investment, why when there is money to be made. Peopel have to go to manhattan for these things, good supermarkets, restuarants, car dealerships, movie theatres, bookstores - do you have any idea how much money a car wash would make around here, it's ridiculous; any descent restaurant around here is packed with people. If I had but a little capital I would be rolling in riches right now. Of course with investment more jobs are created and obviously, walla, no more ghetto. This is simply design, that's it.

PS No banks? banks, can you believe there are no banks? with the investment I mentioned it would generate even more development and services; there would have to be banks then, and other financial organizations, thus even more jobs. You would think banks don't need our money. Really though, is this only obvious to me and The Gaffer? This is very obvious.

[Butterbeer]

EDIT: forgot about the topic: Language, making 'em learn English and how to discuss cricket. Why then are these problems more severe in groups who don't have a language issue?

How the F' do i know?

but, my good gaffer, you seem to miss my point, who are we???... if not a diverse mix?

even on the conventional cornish, welsh, Cumbrian, Scottish, Angle, Irish, northern irish (anglo-phile?????), english or modern-day f' that lot fer a cup o' tea, british ....

...even if we allow all that ... what solid doctrine explains all that, or poverty or racism or the ills of the world???


none that i know of.


the point being, one person one right, and we judge it so else we are judging on false criteria


best, BB x

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

What that means is that, and this was shown as well by a research done by Andrew Gremmer, 240 billion dollars are lost from the economy because of this; that is so mush money - Time Wise pointed this out - that if you spent $200,000 every single day, since jesus was born you still would not have spent as much yet. That is 240 billion dollars the elite get to keep. That is what happens when people are payed less than they are worth. Don't you understand what that means, let me illustrate. When the economy goes bad people spend less, the more money people have the more they buy. Business close down when things go bad, if there where more people to spend more money then not only the existing mom and pop stores would make a profit (not just walmart - the devil) but other mom and pop stores could open up as well; maybe you could have your own business and not work for someone else. I lived in St. louis when TWA laid off hundreds of flight attendants and ramp workers and pilots, and do you know one of those flight attendants ( white person), when faced with loosing her pention and not being able to pay for her house and send her daughter to school, she simply killed herself.

This is what happens when you capitulate with evil in the hope of self advancement, all you become is a slave; this is entmoot, tolkien fans all, so I can put it another way. Say you are going along with sauron because he promises you a fifdom and titles. As soon as all his other enemies were dead, he would come for you, for evil shares power with no one; only one can wear the ring.
...We are fighting the wrong enemy, it is not ourselves, it is the bushes, rockefellers and the rothchilds of the world. Until we learn that, none of us, black or white, are going to be free.

So the point being is, the rule of one.

You take away the rights of anyone, you take away your own rights as well. A slaver cannot argue that he should not be enslaved, even by his own accomplices, if it benefits them.

No part of the society can be enslaved without all of the society being enslaved. From the very top to the very bottom. Power based on negitive actions which are always based on fear, leads you to become beholden to your accomplices over and over again for ever. That is not freedom.

True freedom, to truely live without care, is to have true confidence, which comes from love, which starts with truely loving yourself. Loving yourself means loving your freedom, with that comes the epiphany that if freedom could be taken away from anyone, it could be taken away from you. So to ensure your rights and freedoms you must value that of others as much as your own.

The rule of one. We, are, one.

PS. I am listening to "Crazy" by Gnarles Barkley as I write. I got it on repeat one in itunes.

"...Hahahaa bless your soul

you really think your in control

well

I think your craaaaazy"

[Spock]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Exactly, it is not about language in the USA, most black americans speak no other language but english. So how does language issue affect them?

Most blacks don't speak English as it should be spoken but rather getto talk, gangsta talk or hip-hop talk. Just listen to the accents, etc. and you'll be hard pressed to find any that speak with the eloquence of a Condoleeza Rice or a Colen Powell. Good speach habits are imperative to succeed in business interaction.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

It is a designed system of marginalism, plane and simple. In my community for instance, there are many services that are needed and yet there is no investment, why.....

Because in such neighborhoods the respect for private property and/or those with money, is practically non-existant. Even those blacks who struggle out of such areas as Bed-Sty, Bronx, Jamaica/Queens; won't quickly invest in such neighborhoods and those that do live far, far away.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

do you have any idea how much money a car wash would make around here, it's ridiculous; any descent restaurant around here is packed with people.

In all honesty the cars seen on my last trip through old neighborhoods would fall apart if washed by a machine. As for restaurants, they require middle income people with more disposable income and it wasn't evident that such people lived in sufficient numbers to warrant them. Then again, see above about investment.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

PS No banks? banks, can you believe there are no banks?

Yep, make it harder for the criminal element to rob 'em, they've got to take the E or F train.