The ACLU - pros and cons

[HOBBIT]

Holiday Menorahs :P I have no problem with calling Christmas trees Christmas trees -but people shouldn't get worked up at all about "Happy Holidays" - holidays, plural - not just Christmas.

[Rían]

(I'm following this thread and working on a post in my head - I never want to post hastily on threads like this, because I feel that the vultures are circling, as someone once said )

[Earniel]

I'm wondering, is the Christmas - Holidays dispute an American thing or has it spread to elsewhere too? Please enlighten me.

The thing is, here the phrase "Happy Holidays" (prettige feestdagen) is (too my knowledge) pretty much as common as "Merry Christmas" and "Happy New Year". You see it on cards, shop windows and lighting quite often.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Holiday Menorahs :P I have no problem with calling Christmas trees Christmas trees -but people shouldn't get worked up at all about "Happy Holidays" - holidays, plural - not just Christmas.

BURN HIM!!! BURN HIM!!!

*Grabs pitch fork ...*

...oh, ... sees Rian's post below .... oh well, don't be hasty ..that's always been MY motto

You either value traditions and festivals - a mainstay OF culture - or you end up without one.

and whilst this applies to all cultures - this valuing of diffrernt cultures is not achieved nor indeed in any way aided by destroying in the power of names, thoughts and iconography these traditions or festivals or their meaning to people generation on generation.

Watering down all meaning and definitions into the lowest most insipid effectively meaningless phrases does nothing for this - and indeed we all know it is, as ever, merely the start of a road, not the end of it.

now ..the more important question that has been bugging me and no one has been helpful enough to point out: what the hell does ACLU stand for???

( i can think of course of, Anti Christmas Lunatic Union - but i suspect that is only partly right )

[HOBBIT]

American Civil Liberties Union........ they fight for our civil liberties..

[Spock]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

American Civil Liberties Union........ they fight for our civil liberties..

cough, cough, ack, ack.

[brownjenkins]

The History of Christmas

In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday.

Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. Today, in the Greek and Russian orthodox churches, Christmas is celebrated 13 days after the 25th, which is also referred to as the Epiphany or Three Kings Day. This is the day it is believed that the three wise men finally found Jesus in the manger.

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the "lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink. If owners failed to comply, their visitors would most likely terrorize them with mischief. Christmas became the time of year when the upper classes could repay their real or imagined "debt" to society by entertaining less fortunate citizens.

It wasn't until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia. But what about the 1800s peaked American interest in the holiday?

The early 19th century was a period of class conflict and turmoil. During this time, unemployment was high and gang rioting by the disenchanted classes often occurred during the Christmas season. In 1828, the New York city council instituted the city's first police force in response to a Christmas riot. This catalyzed certain members of the upper classes to begin to change the way Christmas was celebrated in America.

nothing is being destroyed... we are just finally beginning to realize in america that this times of year, and many of the traditions associated with it, go far beyond just christianity... like much in our country, it is the sum of a whole variety of traditions and should be appreciated as such

there is nothing to lose, and a lot to gain, by thinking about the ideas behind the traditions, and not just the icons

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm wondering, is the Christmas - Holidays dispute an American thing or has it spread to elsewhere too? Please enlighten me.

The thing is, here the phrase "Happy Holidays" (prettige feestdagen) is (too my knowledge) pretty much as common as "Merry Christmas" and "Happy New Year". You see it on cards, shop windows and lighting quite often.

I posted a link about the Christmas conflict taking place in Britain. I don't know how extensive this is. It might be very extensive. I know it's an issue present in both America and Britain.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

nothing is being destroyed... we are just finally beginning to realize in america that this times of year, and many of the traditions associated with it, go far beyond just christianity... like much in our country, it is the sum of a whole variety of traditions and should be appreciated as such

there is nothing to lose, and a lot to gain, by thinking about the ideas behind the traditions, and not just the icons

I read a similar article to that one basically pointing out the same thing: that this 'war on christmas' is much ado about nothing and doesnt take history into account really. Its one generations attempt to bring themselves back to what they think they remember from their childhood:

The “war� is composed of conservative Christian groups railing against “politically correct� advertising campaigns that, they say, do not include the words “Merry Christmas� in sales literature or seasonal greetings.

It is an emotional campaign—a petition against Target for not including “Christmas� in its advertising drew more than 600,000 signatures—but it is also an easy one. Virtually all of the stores that conservative groups have targeted have quickly changed their advertising to feature “Christmas� more prominently, as have many of the groups that had “holiday trees.�

And despite some high-powered rhetoric—Fox News host John Gibson says in the subtitle of his book “The War on Christmas� that there is a “liberal plot to ban the sacred Christian holiday�—neither Gibson, nor anyone at the AFA, the Liberty Counsel, Lynn’s group or the ACLU, is aware of an attempt to halt religious observance of Christmas or to stop making it an official federal holiday. And the real irony, religious and academic scholars point out, is that Christmas is observed in one way or another by more Americans than at any point in the nation’s history; indeed, more than any nation at any time in history.

Given that, perhaps it’s not surprising that substantially more people (52 percent) were worried about the commercialization of Christmas than they were about any opposition to displays of religious symbols in public places (35 percent), according to a new nationwide poll by the Pew Research Center.. Some 83 percent of respondents said they preferred “Merry Christmas� to something like “Happy Holidays.� But in a follow-up question, a plurality of 45 percent said it really didn’t matter much either way.

To Karal Ann Marling, a University of Minnesota professor of popular culture who documented the holiday’s evolution in “Merry Christmas! Celebrating America’s Greatest Holiday,� the campaign is an attempt to whitewash the nation’s religious and ethnic mosaic.

“I don’t want them to come to my house and poison my dog, but the religious right wants all of American religious life to be permeated by one point of view, and it’s just not so,� she says.

“Persecution of Christians, at Christmas? In this country? None that I’m aware of,� says James P. Byrd Jr., assistant dean of the Vanderbilt University Divinity School. He graces the observation with a gentle laugh, a comforting sound in this suddenly confrontational season.

Instead, Byrd suggests looking at the current fray in a larger context: conservative Christians yearning for what appears to be a simpler time. When Christmas was Christmas, the argument goes.

It might look something like this:

It is about 1950. A good clean snow has fallen. It crunches underfoot as you round the turn into your yard. Darkness is falling. It is not just quiet, it is peaceful. The small lamp in the kitchen window throws a shaft of light onto the snow. Your mother is there, cooking, singing lightly to herself. It will smell like baking, when you walk in, stamping the snow off your boots, throwing off the cold. Presents will be by the tree. Your pop will be in the easy chair, your little sister tramping down the stairs in her angel costume ready to go to the pageant.

Your heart freeze-frames: This is Christmas.

And now you wake up and it’s 2005. You go to hear the kid’s Christmas play, except by the time it clears all the church-state hurdles the ACLU worries about, it sounds more like “Songs of Many Lands as Sung by 6-Year-Olds.� The Christmas Tree at the Capitol in Washington, they call it a “holiday tree� most years now. Even President Bush, a devout Christian, sends out a Christmas card that does not say “Merry Christmas.� Now you hear a lot about Kwanzaa, Hanukkah and “the holidays.�

What is to be made of all this?

Byrd says the attention to other traditions, the growing complexity of American life, is frustrating to some Christians, who grew up accustomed to Christmas being the preeminent holiday.

“It’s the concept of the majority, and what rights they have to define American holidays, about what it means to be an American,� Byrd says. “The majority of Americans are Christians who celebrate Christmas, and yet there is a sense of alienation that they are still not able to dominate discourse.�

And there is one problem with that pristine image of the American Ghost of Christmas Past, he and others say: It never quite existed. “White Christmas�—which became one of the best-selling songs of all time—was already lamenting a season “just like the ones I used to know� in 1939. The same year, entrepreneur Charles Howard opened one of the first Santa Claus schools, dismayed by the cynical crush of “bums, ham actors, and thousands of odd job men� who were cashing in by playing the man in red.

Confrontations over Christmas are as old as the day itself. The Bible mentions Christ’s birth in a manger, which brings the tradition of the star in the night, the three wise men and many others. But it was nearly 400 years after Christ died before church officials thought to make the date of birth a holiday. This was greatly complicated by the fact that no one knew the exact date. But in 395, church officials set it as Dec. 25, putting it amid a huge pagan festival in ancient Rome known as Saturnalia. The latter was a raucous celebration—lots of alcohol and sex—that church officials allowed to continue as a means of attracting converts.

“That made sure the holiday would be observed, but it gave up any real Christian control over it,� says Stephen Nissenbaum, author of “The Battle for Christmas.�

Across northern Europe, there were pagan celebrations that stemmed from the dark, fallow days of the winter solstice. As Christianity spread, the two often overlapped, even as Europeans began to settle America. The Puritans were horrified at the combination. Finding no mention of Dec. 25 in their Bibles, they banned the holiday as sacrilegious.

“People drank a lot, caroused in the street,� says Leigh Schmidt, professor of religion at Princeton University and author of “Consumer Rites: The Buying and Selling of American Holidays.� “Puritans thought Christmas was the worst day in the year to preach Christ, because people showed up at church after imbibing a lot of rum.�

The founding fathers had no Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas, a minor European saint, did not morph into the current image of the gift-laden Santa Claus until the 1820s). There were no Christmas trees (a German import that didn’t take root until the 1840s). Dec. 25 wasn’t made a federal holiday under the first 17 American presidents (including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Abraham Lincoln). The holiday did not come until 1870, under Ulysses Grant, perhaps one of the least pious of presidents.

As the decades passed, Christmas became a holiday that celebrated the values of home and hearth and family and generosity, not just a Christian rite. There was Santa and the magic of childhood, a particularly Victorian ideal, that went alongside the Christian underpinning.

By the early 1900s, when companies began to learn how much they could commercially exploit the Santa Claus magic (Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer began life as a Montgomery Ward advertising gambit) the modern idea of Christmas was born.

[Rían]

Another condescending, stereotyping view of Christians

"What is to be made of all this?" Another article that seems to promote the idea that all Christians have IQ's barely in the double-digit range.

My main beef with the ACLU is that IMO, in many of their cases (note - not ALL) they act like bullies in support of bullies.

If some people are truly traumatized by seeing a manger scene on public property in a country where over 90% of the people celebrate Christmas, then I think they need to get a real life. I think that the ACLU should spend their money for counseling for said person, instead of forcing said person's selfish, intolerant ways on a community by the threat of financial ruin through lawsuits. I think the ACLU started out with a good idea, but got perverted by their power, although again, I don't think ALL of their cases are wrong.

[brownjenkins]

all the ACLU does is give people a forum in which to address these kind of issues... whether they are real issue or not is for the courts to decide

they are often seen defending religious freedoms too (even christians! )... here's a recent example (full article here):

DETROIT -- After exhausting all avenues in the Michigan courts, the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan today filed a federal lawsuit on behalf of a Catholic man who was criminally punished for not completing a Pentecostal drug rehabilitation program.

“This man was punished for insisting on the right to practice Catholicism and refusing conversion to the Pentecostal faith,� said Kary Moss, ACLU of Michigan Executive Director. “The Michigan courts would not acknowledge his First Amendment rights, but we’re confident that the federal court will.�

[Rían]

It's not as simple as giving a forum - just the threat of a lawsuit, for some people without a mega-entity like the ACLU on their side, will make them cave, and I think that's bullying - it never even makes it to the courts.

Yes, I'm familiar with that case, and I think that Penecostal program is wrong to try to force people to "convert".

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

It's not as simple as giving a forum - just the threat of a lawsuit, for some people without a mega-entity like the ACLU on their side, will make them cave, and I think that's bullying - it never even makes it to the courts.

Yes, I'm familiar with that case, and I think that Penecostal program is wrong to try to force people to "convert".

usually it is the ACLU against a much bigger mega-entity... the US government, the Catholic or other established churches, etc... both sides get plenty of support from those that agree with their stance, and the side that wins the case is often reimbursed of most, if not all, of their expenses too

sure, it can get rough at times... and sometimes they go to far... but, to preserve the country we love, we need people who are willing to put up a fight from time to time

[Spock]

They have a track record of very narrow ideology; including "God" in the Pledge, The Pledge of Alligiance itself,Ten Commandments displayed, etc. Most cases they get involved with reduce the freedoms Americans have expressed in word, action or deed and they do it under the cover of "we want less government"....(read: anarchy)

[Butterbeer]

HOOOOOOOOOOOBOY!

do i have a few things to say here:

actually i'll lay down some some ground work before i pop off and get some smokes before i give up on friday - i'll be driving me Neice's to the barn - so i can't smoke - so i may as well give up before the new year anyway....

thus i intend to have a good smoke till then

(stupid habit btw - so ridiculously STUPID it beggars beleif- but enjoyable if you are stressed - and my stress levels the last two or so weeks have been off the scale - but i digress ...)

right .... i'll lay the groundwork for me stuff in a mo ... gotta go!

(very quick summary else the whole post is pointless)

: started off totally on-side with Rian ...

learnt what ACCy thingy stands for (cheers, Saviour HOBBIT) and in a very generalised world view think it no bad thing: IN THEORY - also in a VERY generalised way tend generally to agree more with brownjenkin's world view - vaguely - as i can percieve it myself of course - SO: why do i have problems with what both of youse have written?

.... to be continued ...

best BB

*slopes off into the cold night to get a smoke*

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

They have a track record of very narrow ideology; including "God" in the Pledge, The Pledge of Alligiance itself,Ten Commandments displayed, etc. Most cases they get involved with reduce the freedoms Americans have expressed in word, action or deed and they do it under the cover of "we want less government"....(read: anarchy)

and, as i said... each and every of these ideas has it's day in court, as they should... the narrow ones are thrown out, they ones that make sense adopted

they've even supported the rights of the KKK to demostrate... free speech can by scary... but the alternative is scarier

[Butterbeer]

well, i have only had a quick drag ...so i'll come back to me points when ihave had time "to think" ..but yes, though i have no time for the KKK ... in terms of civil liberties et al, they should be defended - at least in terms of rights and freedom of thought and expression.

IF one purportes to uphold the principles civil liberties...then one has to follow through on the core principles ..so good on 'em .... at least on the principle ...

[Rían]

I think the case that really sent me over the edge with the ACLU was the one in Los Angeles, California, where they fought to get a tiny cross off the seal of the city of Los Angeles - a city whose very NAME translates into "The Angels", and in a state that has a huge tradition of missions. The cross is so tiny that I never even realized it was there! and the seal is dominated by a huge depiction of the GODDESS Pomona, which for some reason was NOT objected to Now the city has to spend prob. millions of dollars to eradicate all the teensy, tiny little crosses on their official seal - money that could be spent for things like, say, health care and education, schools, etc.

MAJOR

[Butterbeer]

firstly, in general i have no problem with looking at things or questioning the historical evolution of christmas nor the quite plain and undisputable Christian hegemonic control historically regarding christianity and western society of the festivities .... but that is really neither here nor there to me in any great sense .. it is history and if anything gives a good view on our world ...

nor is it really suprising ....

nor does that say it is not ok for christians AND non christians alike to enjoy the traditions and messages of christmas ... nor need it be exclusively religious .. nor for that matter exclusively commercial ....

but to pick a fight on the words, culture, messages, iconography, meaning, spirit, and ultimately our much loved traditions of christmas ... is for me, ludricous, but worse ... totally meaningful ... i disagree with Rian, in so far as making this issue into a specifically religious one ... it goes way beyond that to my mind.

Nor do i accept Bj's view that it is a defence of liberty ...

how so?

I generally stand FOR civil liberties: but how does this promote it? By attacking both secular AND religious freedom to respect your culture (whatever culture) that either just enjoys or takes other more faithful enjoyment out of christmas ??? ... be it a time to spend with family and relax, or to think on the beleif in your FREELY chosen God?

This is freedom?

there are times when in the name of liberty, libertarians appear more restrictive and totalitarian than anyone else .... this i feel is one.

But Rian and brownjenkins - do not make this into a steroetype bashing exercise ... i say stand up for our civil liberties to enjoy our cultural festivals ... whether it is rian's christian christmas ... BJ's turkey and presents or Spock's festivus ...

is this freedom?

yes, it is freedom to question and debate .... but any organisation can and will be judged HOW and WHY they do so: is the ACLU serving ANYONE well here???

Nay.

Socially, culturally, secularly AND religiously christmas means more than a holiday ... and if anything we stand up FOR our civil liberties by defending our right to our culture and traditions and way of life .... anyone that argues against our freedom to culture, history, beleif or sheer enjoyment can no longer claim ANY justifcation to stand on a platform of civil liberty.

is it just words?

Dare you tell me words and their meanings are so insipid and meaningless, SO powerless?

Does it not go FAR beyond mere words?

i say this in ending: IF words, and meanings are SO powerless and inconsequential: DO NOT REPLY HERE: WHAT IS THE POINT?

this goes far beyond mere words or religion: it strikes home on the very concept of freedom: in this particular example i feel the ACLU shoot themsleves in the foot.

best all : and happy christmas, BB

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I posted a link about the Christmas conflict taking place in Britain. I don't know how extensive this is. It might be very extensive. I know it's an issue present in both America and Britain.

Not extensive at all. There have been a few stories in the papers about schools refusing to put on nativity plays etc, but it's really a non-issue which the right-wing press uses to play on racial tensions. It seems to me that most minorities are not bothered about it.

The Church-and-State issue is not a factor because we have an established Church.