No man can kill the Nazgul - or can they? - Page 2

elven dragonrider · 04-06-2007, 01:57 PM

Watch out, I live quite near a very very very very large army base. I have relations.
*Strolls calmly over to air force jet*

Maybe we should . . . not kill anyone. What do you think?

First on the page!

trolls' bane · 04-06-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elven dragonrider

Watch out, I live quite near a very very very very large army base. I have relations.
*Strolls calmly over to air force jet*

Maybe we should . . . not kill anyone. What do you think?

First on the page!

Perhaps not, because after all I would hate to use my Imperial Starfleet to orbitally bombard such a peaceful place as this.

No your not. You're twenty first.

Am I the only one who still uses 200 posts/page?

Noble Elf Lord · 04-06-2007, 02:16 PM

Please enter your guesses in the riddle forum.

Although it is kinda my fault...

But no, the answer is not the Rings. The answer includes but one item. See you at the Riddle forum.

elven dragonrider · 04-06-2007, 02:37 PM

Still haven't figured out the different forums yet, which one if the riddle forum?

Noble Elf Lord · 04-06-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elven dragonrider

Still haven't figured out the different forums yet, which one if the riddle forum?

It´s "Riddling III".

***Rían*** · 04-06-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

At the Battle of Fornost Glorfindel said to Earnur (to dissuade him from following the Witch King), "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of Man shall he fall." Which I would call a prophecy.

Later, the Witch King says to Eowyn, "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Thanks for the quotes - I had forgotten the exact words.

Interesting how the WK took Glorfy's words and kind of expanded on them. Reminds me of Eve in the Garden of Eden expanding on God's words ... and they both got into trouble!

elven dragonrider · 04-06-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

It´s "Riddling III".

Thanks! I'll go there.

Finrod Felagund · 04-11-2007, 01:39 PM

I always figured it referred to the Witch-King alone and did not apply to the other Nazgul

Noble Elf Lord · 04-13-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finrod Felagund

I always figured it referred to the Witch-King alone and did not apply to the other Nazgul

Yep. Hmmm. They fear fire... since they fear it, surely they can be, if not destroyed, at least defeated with flames. Please note that I brought this up as a dilemma, I did´nt go around telling they can´t be destroyed before the Ring had molten.

Gwaimir Windgem · 04-16-2007, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Actually, it says that no living man can stop him. "To hinder", which means to hold back, is not equal "to fall", to go down, and quite incongruent with "to kill", to eliminate.It doesn't say that some harm can't be inflicted.

That is why I put 'real' harm. Obviously, a scratch on his knuckles wouldn't really hinder him, but it seems that any serious harm would do so.

caboose007 · 07-16-2007, 07:50 AM

... Mind you... Eowyn wasn't exactly a man now was she? The prophecy mentioned nothing about women.... hmmmm so that would mean that if your really wanted to defeat the Witch King easily you could just tell a bunch of pregnant women that he called them fat... simple really.

Lefty Scaevola · 07-16-2007, 12:47 PM

There is nothing in Tolkien about the Nazgul being invulnerable to attacks from men. There is merely the prophecy by Glorfindal, a High Elf, about the the Witchking.
"Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall"

This is just a prophecy of what will happen to one particular being, not a statement of what could happen to being like him.

Noble Elf Lord · 08-01-2007, 09:03 AM

Perhaps not invulnerable, but I think they could not be entirely destroyed (sorry have I said this before? I haven´t been able to get here for weeks, it´s so annoying

) since they were bound to the One... after all, the foundations of Barad-Dur would not crumble before the One was destroyed.

Jon S. · 08-07-2007, 08:22 PM

No man may hinder me either. My wife, by contrast, can put a stop to me.

Lucky for the Witch King he was single (or was he?!

).

Gordis · 08-08-2007, 03:57 PM

He wasn't

Fohel · 10-02-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landroval

In what sense do you mean he slew him? He merely cut off his ring, after Sauron was thrown down by Elendil and Gil-Galad. Elrond says that the heat of Sauron's hand destroyed Gil-Galad - there was no way for Isildur to cut the ring if Sauron was not neutralised at that time.

Didn't Isildur take Elendil's sorwd, Narsil and use it to cut the ring off Sauron's hand? If this is so wouldn't Elendil have to be dead first?

Lefty Scaevola · 10-02-2007, 03:11 PM

Ellendil mortaly wounded Sauron's body, and was crushed or suffacated when Suaron fell on him. Isildur cut off Sauron's finger with the ring on it. Isildur may or may not have finished off Sauron's body.

Edit: I seem to remember the above from somewhere in HoME, but it is porely indexed, and I can not find it nor be sure of its authenticity.

Gordis · 10-02-2007, 04:41 PM

I remember nothing from HOME on the matter, but I guess Isildur was very lucky to catch Sauron at a right moment - after he was "brought down" = neutralized, severely wounded, but before he "died", that is before his fea actually fled his hroa. Because, as we know from the Letters, bodiless Sauron's fea was perfectly capable to carry the Ring with it while fleeing.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-02-2007, 06:12 PM

Yep, JRRT clearly states in a letter that bodiless Valar and Maiar can still interact physically with the world (and inddeed that was the manner of much of their world building the world) and that that is how Sauron carried the ring away from Numenor. More technically, that the nature of the Ainurs' Fea was different from the Children of Illuvatar, and that the it was more fully a part of the physical world (and indeed that being bodiless was the natural state of the Ainur) than the Fea of Men or Elves.

Edit for reference: Letter # 211

Noble Elf Lord · 10-11-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

He wasn't

So how did you get along?

04-06-2007, 01:57 PM	#21
elven dragonrider Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Confusion Lane, on the back of a dragon, or on horseback. Posts: 186	Watch out, I live quite near a very very very very large army base. I have relations. Strolls calmly over to air force jet Maybe we should . . . not kill anyone. What do you think? First on the page! __________________ Do not follow where the path may lead, but goes instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -Emerson Edgar Alan Poe and Oscar Wilde rock. They are actually better than rocks. Beautiful Soup and A Tomato Ate My Sister are the most educational and intellectual songs ever created, challenging the scholarly power of the great philosophers. On TB's sig, Don't worry about the world ending today, tomorrow, or next week, just worry about it ending *now*.

04-06-2007, 02:16 PM	#23
Noble Elf Lord Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it. Posts: 1,052	Please enter your guesses in the riddle forum. Although it is kinda my fault... But no, the answer is not the Rings. The answer includes but one item. See you at the Riddle forum. __________________ Hers.

04-06-2007, 02:37 PM	#24
elven dragonrider Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Confusion Lane, on the back of a dragon, or on horseback. Posts: 186	Still haven't figured out the different forums yet, which one if the riddle forum? __________________ Do not follow where the path may lead, but goes instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -Emerson Edgar Alan Poe and Oscar Wilde rock. They are actually better than rocks. Beautiful Soup and A Tomato Ate My Sister are the most educational and intellectual songs ever created, challenging the scholarly power of the great philosophers. On TB's sig, Don't worry about the world ending today, tomorrow, or next week, just worry about it ending *now*.

04-11-2007, 01:39 PM	#28
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	I always figured it referred to the Witch-King alone and did not apply to the other Nazgul __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

07-16-2007, 12:47 PM	#32
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	There is nothing in Tolkien about the Nazgul being invulnerable to attacks from men. There is merely the prophecy by Glorfindal, a High Elf, about the the Witchking. "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" This is just a prophecy of what will happen to one particular being, not a statement of what could happen to being like him. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 07-16-2007 at 12:57 PM.

07-16-2007, 07:50 AM	#31
caboose007 Sapling Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: England Posts: 10	... Mind you... Eowyn wasn't exactly a man now was she? The prophecy mentioned nothing about women.... hmmmm so that would mean that if your really wanted to defeat the Witch King easily you could just tell a bunch of pregnant women that he called them fat... simple really.

08-01-2007, 09:03 AM	#33
Noble Elf Lord Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it. Posts: 1,052	Perhaps not invulnerable, but I think they could not be entirely destroyed (sorry have I said this before? I haven´t been able to get here for weeks, it´s so annoying ) since they were bound to the One... after all, the foundations of Barad-Dur would not crumble before the One was destroyed. __________________ Hers.

08-07-2007, 08:22 PM	#34
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	No man may hinder me either. My wife, by contrast, can put a stop to me. Lucky for the Witch King he was single (or was he?! ).

08-08-2007, 03:57 PM	#35
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	He wasn't

10-02-2007, 03:11 PM	#37
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Ellendil mortaly wounded Sauron's body, and was crushed or suffacated when Suaron fell on him. Isildur cut off Sauron's finger with the ring on it. Isildur may or may not have finished off Sauron's body. Edit: I seem to remember the above from somewhere in HoME, but it is porely indexed, and I can not find it nor be sure of its authenticity. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 10-02-2007 at 04:00 PM.

10-02-2007, 04:41 PM	#38
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	I remember nothing from HOME on the matter, but I guess Isildur was very lucky to catch Sauron at a right moment - after he was "brought down" = neutralized, severely wounded, but before he "died", that is before his fea actually fled his hroa. Because, as we know from the Letters, bodiless Sauron's fea was perfectly capable to carry the Ring with it while fleeing.

10-02-2007, 06:12 PM	#39
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Yep, JRRT clearly states in a letter that bodiless Valar and Maiar can still interact physically with the world (and inddeed that was the manner of much of their world building the world) and that that is how Sauron carried the ring away from Numenor. More technically, that the nature of the Ainurs' Fea was different from the Children of Illuvatar, and that the it was more fully a part of the physical world (and indeed that being bodiless was the natural state of the Ainur) than the Fea of Men or Elves. Edit for reference: Letter # 211 __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 10-02-2007 at 06:17 PM.

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