05-01-2002, 02:32 PM | #21 | |
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"THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!" |
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05-01-2002, 02:34 PM | #22 |
Elf Lord
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Wait... Does this have anything to do with the cryptic message "Blue Wizard has eaten all the food."?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
05-01-2002, 05:33 PM | #23 | ||
Elf Lord
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"Blue Wizard is about to die ... "
Heya Xandre. You should check out the "toast" to Danner thread on General Messages. Quote:
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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05-02-2002, 08:02 AM | #24 | |
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As far as I know the names Alatar and Pallando are only used in the sketch telling of the council of the Valar in which the Istari were selected and in the accompanying notes. And in that way they stand beside Curumo, Olórin and Aiwendil, the names of the Istari in Valinor. Since most of the names of Tolkien are speaking names it would be interesting to put some light on Alatar and Pallando. I only found Al(a)tariel = 'maiden crowned with a radiant garland' and Christopher Tolkiens hint to palan = fern, but again I am far from being an expert in languages and I do not memorize these things well, so there might be more. Regrads Findegil |
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05-02-2002, 02:50 PM | #25 | |
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05-02-2002, 07:11 PM | #26 |
Elf Lord
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Very true. For one thing Tolkien constructed "his" world, or maybe I should say his mythology in such a way that the history and people will often tell you about the languages, and vice-versa. I suppose that is true of actual history, but it is not true of many other fantasies. Anyway researching the different divisions of the Elves* will tell you the Blue Wizards probably did not have Sindarin names. ... Well, unless they received names in the Undying Land from Sindarin speaking people living on the Lonely Isle. But few of the Maiar were known by name among Elves when they were known to be Maiar, or so I seem to remember the Valaquenta saying.
*As for the Grey-elves, they did not really exist as such until the Elves had reached far western Beleriand, lands sunk beneath the western Sea at the time of the Lord of the Rings. The Vanyar and Noldor had all left the Hither Lands (as Middle-earth was called), taken across the Sea by Ulmo to Valinor, when Thingol was lossed in Nan Elmoth. He had wandered in, drawn by the singing of Nightingales, and met Melian. He fell into an enchantment as she sang, gazing at her face wherein the Light of the Holy Ones shone. They stood for years, I forget how many (the exact amount of years is indeed known). Many of Elwe and Olwe's host of Teleri were wandering about the land, and some were dwelling on the coast, waiting for Ulmo. When Thingol was lossed and Ulmo came, his brother Olwe took the Kingship and left in sorrow with most of that coastal people. C*rdan, another kinsman of Elu Thingol (Elwe Thindicollo), was the leaders of the "friends of Elwe" as they are called in the Silmarillion, and they searched for their lost King. All the people of Olwe and Elwe who had remained in Middle-earth after the departure of the former called themselves the Eglath, "the Forsaken". It was when Elwe and Melian finally emerged from Nan Elmoth that Thingol became High King of Beleriand, and all the Eglath were his folk. It was by this time, I guess, that Common Eldarin (the language of all the Elves on the Great Journey) had become "Old Sindarin" and then the Sindarin many are familiar with. But what the Sindar called it is not known. "Sindarin" is a word that belongs to Quenya. The Sindar called themselves the Edhil, simply "the Elves", because everyone who spoke the language was of one people. But within the Grey-elves, there were eventually the Iathrim, the Fence-people of Doriath, the Falathrim, the Shore-people of the Falas ruled by C*rdan, and the Mithrim, the Grey-people living in Hithlum in the land named after themselves. It wasn't until the Noldor arrived and met the Grey-people of Mithrim that the Edhil of Beleriand (called by this time Eluwaith, Folk-of-Elu) were called Sindar, "the Grey". If there were Sindarin folk living in the far East in the Second Age, they were few and exceptional and probably much mingled with the Avari over there.
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05-02-2002, 08:35 PM | #27 |
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Incidentally, Dylan: when your footnote is twice the size of your post, even though it's in a smaller font, you have a problem.
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05-02-2002, 09:52 PM | #28 |
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*mumbles at the tree-boughs* I like footnotes ...
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05-02-2002, 09:54 PM | #29 | |
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01-25-2010, 08:22 AM | #30 |
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Old thread, yes, but it had the word blue in the title, so...
... are the blue wizards really blue? Anyone recall a mention of colour after the letter of 1958 (letter 211) -- in which Tolkien relates he doesn't know the colours, and doubts they had distinctive colours. There might be something, but I don't remember at the moment. |
11-07-2010, 07:02 AM | #31 |
Sapling
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I highly doubt they were successive in their mission...send in 2 little wizards in the middle of nowhere all surrounded by people who worship darkness out of fear,and even Sauron himself must have been visiting the far East often,since he was returning to Dol Guldur from the east...
As someone mentioned,I believe they remained to lead some dark cults following the teachings of Sauron ,worshiping Melkor or both |
11-07-2010, 04:12 PM | #32 | |||
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Metus_of_Morgul, Tolkien does indicate that the two Blue Wizards were partly successful in their attempts to discomfit Sauron’s schemes, but that they, too, eventually deviated from their missions. He wrote more about them over a 18-year period, beginning with an essay Christopher Tolkien dates to 1954 cited in “Istari” in Unfinished Tales.
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The Blue Wizards are given different names at different points, and it is also said that their names are forgotten; but then, Radagast, Saruman, and especially Gandalf had several different names as well. In any case, the names given are Morinehtar (translate: “Darkness-slayer”) and Rómestámo and (translate: “East-helper”) in Peoples of Middle-earth, and Alatar (unclear: possibly “After-comer” (in one telling, he was chosen second, after Saruman) or “Noble One”) and Pallando (“Far Wanderer”) in Unfinished Tales. (That the same sheet of paper has radically different names for these characters on the front and the back might be further indication that the material on the back was written well after the material on the front.) Last edited by Alcuin : 11-07-2010 at 05:29 PM. Reason: punctuation |
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11-08-2010, 12:07 PM | #33 | |||
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Another possibility for Alatar is (I think) 'Light-lord, Lord of light', noting one of Galadriel's names Alatáriel, and Sauron's Annatar 'Gift-lord'. I would add that since these two notes are late (on the same page or not), it is difficult to know which is later. And in my opinion, the more legible version (if later) implies that the two 'blue' wizards came at the same time as the other three -- so one would think in the Third Age, as Tolkien had already published, or at least that the idea of them coming much earlier is not in play. Thus, (again if so) at least arguably casting a measure of doubt concerning the idea that the other two also had this measure of success. Last edited by Galin : 11-08-2010 at 12:30 PM. |
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11-08-2010, 06:11 PM | #34 | |||||
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Second or Third Age, though, I think the Ithryn Luin must have had some positive influence on Middle-earth at the beginning: even if they fell, as the text indicates they did, that fall surely did not take place at once; and Sauron’s resources in the South, which had been the main focus of Númenórean expansion (and hence of the some Black Númenórean daughter-kingdoms, counterparts of the Faithful Númenórean kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor, and one of which was the home of the infamous Queen Berúthiel), and the East, which included the vast regions of Rhûn and the country east beyond Mordor (one wonders whether Khand was ever free of Sauronian influence), should have been vastly larger than they are depicted even in The Lord of the Rings. Where were these armies? or were all late Third Age nations reduced in numbers? The intent, I believe, is that the Blue Wizards had a positive influence on these regions, so that Sauron and his minions were unable to draw upon those peoples for the kinds of military resources that they might otherwise have mustered, large though they were to face doddering Gondor at the end of the Third Age. -|- A final note on this subject, since the thread is live and likely to draw attention... The text says that the “chiefs” of the Istari were five: in other words, there were more Maiar who went out as Istari than the Five Wizards. What became of them, what success they had, is not even mentioned: only that there were five “chiefs”. That strikes me as similar to the idea that there were lots and lots of lesser balrogs in the First Age, and that only one big, bad Balrog survived into the Third. (Although descriptions of Sauron sound as if he was unable to take on any other form than that of a balrog: darkness and fire.) So, are there lots of wizards and lots of balrogs and lots of Maiar, or few? (Just to throw a little gas on the fire…) |
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11-08-2010, 07:22 PM | #35 | |||
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And on the other side of this are the two less legible notes given in Last Writings, the second of which names the wizards anew. I don't think CJRT meant that the second of the two is on a wholly different page, since he first described: 'On the reverse of the page are some notes...' I also note the commentary that includes JRRT's statement: 'A note made on their names and functions seems now lost...' concerning which CJRT later says that he thinks might refer to the text with Alatar, Pallando. Quote:
On the matter of the success of the two wizards: I'm not sure (at the moment) if there is anything that necessarily precludes them from having some initial success. According to letter 211, for instance, where Tolkien says he doesn't know what success thay had but fears they failed... it's hard to know how long before they failed (within this context) and if they had some success at first. My 'this measure of success' (above) refers to the measure of success mentioned in the very late note, though not that you said otherwise (just for clarity here). Quote:
Just as the 'blue' reference may not have lasted? Last edited by Galin : 11-09-2010 at 12:11 AM. |
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11-09-2010, 04:09 PM | #36 |
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Blue Wizards, blue hoods – K*li and F*li had blue hoods. By order of listing in The Hobbit, Ori’s was grey, Óin’s was brown, and Glóin’s was white. Glóin was still wearing white when Frodo met him at dinner the evening before the Council of Elrond. (How’d he stay clean traveling? Scotchgard?)
I’m sure there’s no connection between wizards with colors and dwarves with colors. Still, it’s an interesting juxtaposition. -|- One more random thought in this non-sequitur post: Ori with the grey hood died not far from the Chamber of Mazarbul in Moria. So did Gandalf the Grey. Not drawin’ any interferences, just sayin’… Last edited by Alcuin : 11-09-2010 at 09:54 PM. |
03-28-2011, 01:47 AM | #37 |
Sapling
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I've always felt that the Blue Wizards didn't ultimately turn to evil like Saruman, but simply became preoccupied with some other obsession, like Radagast had with the plants and animals of the world. Maybe the allure of these things were too great for beings who had never been to Middle-earth before, but even Gandalf developed an obsession with Hobbits that only bore fruit due to chance - his relationship with the Shirefolk extended back much further than Bilbo's time, so he wasn't simply taking an interest in them due to Bilbo having the One Ring. Gandalf was also much smarter and strong-willed than some of the other Istari, so if even he could fall prey to his whims, a lesser Wizard might totally succumb to them (IIRC, Radagast did, in fact - he floundered in Middle-earth long after Sauron's defeat and Gandalf's return home). In any case, I think Saruman's turn to evil is much more shocking and frightening if it is unique. If the majority of the Istari had become evil, it seems like the wiser of the Free Peoples should have kept a closer eye on the comings and goings of the Wizards, just in case...
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11-20-2011, 02:53 PM | #38 |
Sapling
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I'd like to clear up another point, there were five named Istari in the books. Unfinished Tales said,"of this order;the number is unknown, but of those that came to the north of Middle -earth, where there was most hope, the chiefs were five." So by reason one can plainly see that there had to more Istari who were not mentioned in the other works...
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11-21-2011, 04:28 PM | #39 | |
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By virtue of the wording of all the later texts that only mention five, it might remain possible that Tolkien is, in each of them, only considering five out of some unknown number, but in my opinion one would have to gather up any and all mentions of the five wizards that post date the Istari essay, and see what they think. That's why I'm (recently) questioning 'blue-ness' -- in a later letter (later than the Sea blue reference and so on) Tolkien specifically notes that he doubts these wizards had colours, and so far I can't find a reference to them being 'blue' in anything later than that. Last edited by Galin : 11-21-2011 at 04:30 PM. |
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11-22-2011, 06:25 AM | #40 |
Elf Lord
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I think a combination of A and B. In the Hobbit, Gandalf is portrayed as being of a wizarding "profession" and not so much a singular being. As the story develops through LOTR, it quickly becomes clear - after Shadow of the Past - that he is one of a very few. I think this reflects a refining of the story, a desire on the part of JRRT to "account" for Gandalf's powers and make a link to the background mythology of the Silmarillion.
The UT story cited by Another Istari shows an intermediate state between these two ideas of the prevalence of wizards. |
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