10-30-2003, 02:36 PM | #21 |
Elven Warrior
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I have a question about Finrod's oath to Beren. Could it be that it Finrod made it to ultimately distance himself from the doom of the Noldor and being further involved in the Kinslaying?
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10-30-2003, 03:10 PM | #22 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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I'm not quite sure how he could have distanced himself from the Doom of the Noldor. The doom was layed upon all of them as they left Valinor. Finrod said something about it when he spoke to his people after they turned on him. From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977. Quote:
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10-30-2003, 07:46 PM | #23 |
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I guess what I meant to say was that because of his oath to Beren, he ended up dying an early and heroic death and was spared involvement in the Fall of Doriath wherein he might have had to take sides against Dior.
Is the term 'Kinslaying' reserved for the elves of Valinor and the flight of the Noldor? Or would it also pertain to the fall of Doriath?
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10-31-2003, 03:28 AM | #24 | ||
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10-31-2003, 01:18 PM | #25 |
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Artanis, thank you for responding about the kinslaying. I had forgotten about the third example.
For some reason, I had assumed Fingon would have been bound to side with Feanor in his quest for the Silmarils. As I referred back to the book, I see now that he was against the oath, and accompanied the rest of the Noldor exodus for reasons other than the Silmaril recovery.
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10-31-2003, 03:53 PM | #26 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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11-01-2003, 01:17 PM | #27 | |
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I'm not sure why the name of Fingon appeared in this thread, but there is an interesting quote about the motifs of the other Ñoldor who were not under Fëanor.
From Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-01-2003, 02:42 PM | #28 |
Elven Warrior
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Oops, sorry! I meant to say Finrod in my last post.
Thanks for the reference, Maehdros. I have all the HoMe books, but have only read vol. 6 - 11.
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11-01-2003, 11:50 PM | #29 | |
The Tall
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That to me is a mistake Elvet to read them in that order, and this is why:
Home 1 - 5 consists of the older lore of the legendarium, the actual evolution of it. Because you have read Home 6-11, you would have had noticed the references that CT makes toward the older home books. In the case of Home 6-9, it doesn't matter that much because LOTR is almost independent (sense of the current story) of the Silmarillion, but there are certain tidbits that can be really helpful. I think that by using this approach one learn about the evolution of the legendarium and how come it ended up like that. In home 6 for example, when JRRT first introduces Glorfindel into the tale, he writes a note saying that he must explain the ancestry of Glorfindel: From The Shadow of the Past: At Rivendell Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-04-2003, 03:19 AM | #30 |
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Why Finrod?
I'm trying to figure out why Ulmo chose to put those heavy dreams upon Finrod as well as Turgon that night by the river Sirion. Ulmo clearly has a plan involving Turgon and Gondolin, but what was the purpose with Finrod and Nargothrond, except for being a stronghold and a safe place?
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11-04-2003, 03:04 PM | #31 |
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I think that Ulmo had foreknowledge of Morgoth's breaking of the siege and he sent the dreams for Turgon and Finrod to found strong, secret places. Finrod chose strength and inaccessibility over secrecy.
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11-04-2003, 05:43 PM | #32 |
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Yes, that I understand. But if there was no other purpose, why choose Finrod, and not any of the other Noldorin princes?
Ulmo had this great plan with Turgon, Gondolin and Tuor. It makes me think that he had a purpose with Finrod too.
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11-05-2003, 01:16 PM | #33 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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11-05-2003, 02:23 PM | #34 | ||
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Oh SGH, all this talk of Finrod made me see what you do see in your king of Nargothrond.
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11-05-2003, 02:26 PM | #35 |
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Isn't he wonderful? (thud, drool)
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
11-06-2003, 03:43 AM | #36 | |
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Perhaps it makes more sense to think that Ulmo foresaw the coming of Beren and Finrod's part in his quest. This has become another Finrod thread.
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11-06-2003, 10:39 AM | #37 |
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Since Tugon and Finrod were off on a tramp and sleeping by the River, Ulmo siezed his chance to warn those two about the coming danger, I guess.
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11-06-2003, 07:50 PM | #38 | |
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Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. Last edited by Bacchus : 11-06-2003 at 07:51 PM. |
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11-06-2003, 08:53 PM | #39 |
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True enough; it was "hidden" to that extent. Turin reminds me of that character in "L'l Abner" that walked around with a dark cloud over his head all of the time. Aragorn's cri du cour, "An ill fate is upon me this day and all my choices go amiss," could be Turin's epitath.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
11-07-2003, 12:46 AM | #40 |
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Maybe it was just that Ulmo knew that Finrod and Turgon were quite capable of establishing these strongholds and ruling them securely for many years. He was one of the Valar that did not forsake the Noldor in exile and constantly intervened to aid and guide them.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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