12-05-2002, 02:33 PM | #21 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
I also wonder about other evil creatures such as Ungoliant. It seems to me that she was not in league with Morgoth, but would aid him in evil deeds for a price. Do you think she could have ever been bribed by the good guys to do anything against Morgoth or other enemies? She just seemed to be out for herself. Were there any other independent evil free agents?
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-05-2002, 03:40 PM | #22 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
|
What little we see of Ungoliant portrays it as a cunning beast. It probably was also an amoral creature, it’s sole concern being the satiation of its hunger. I doubt it would be controllable, in the end it always wanted more, and more.
It may be relevant that the originally Ungoliant was supposed to be a servant of Morgoth, grown too strong for him to control.
__________________
**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
12-05-2002, 05:03 PM | #23 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
*hee hee*
Thanks, Lief! Sorry, SGH!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-05-2002 at 05:06 PM. |
12-05-2002, 05:13 PM | #24 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
12-05-2002, 05:23 PM | #25 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
OMGoodness, this is TOO fun!
Good question, SGH, about other "independant" evil forces. Old Man Willow pops into my head, and the tentacle creature in the water outside the gate of Moria ... also, on the good side, Bombadil. I like your summary of Ungoliant, Elvellon - her "sole concern being the satiation of its hunger". What a fitting end she had - eating herself! I can't find it in the Sil offhand - is it in there, or is it in HoME somewhere?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-05-2002, 05:38 PM | #26 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Re: More questions .... on Maiar and Enemies
2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of Ossë? Contrast to the rebellions of Aulë and Melkor.
I really like the little paragraph on Ossë's rebellion and repentance. Ossë apparently went over to Melkor's allegiance and started the "great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands." But then his spouse, Uienen, at the request of Aulë (hmm, just noticed that it was Aulë that asked! Interesting ... I wonder if the dwarf-making episode had taken place yet - I don't think it's clear either way) : Quote:
I really like the story of Aulë creating the dwarves, and how he offered even to destroy "the work of my presumption", and then Iluvatar gave it to him, because Aulë was willing to let go of it. But that comes in another chapter...
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
12-05-2002, 06:15 PM | #27 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
|
Quote:
__________________
**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
|
12-05-2002, 06:20 PM | #28 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Thanks!
I think you and SGH have the same Sil - I'm SO jealous! Mine is a cheap paperback that is in several pieces...
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-05-2002, 06:44 PM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
|
Ahah! My fist Silmarillion is also in such a state (I had to look nearly all bookstores in town to find it, I had became enthralled by Tolkien’s universe after reading LotR, and specially by the elves, so I had to know more about them. I still have that old book).
About your fourth question: Quote:
Originally Morgoth wanted to Create, later, as he became more and more corrupt, he became solely motivated by destruction, virtually embodying Entropy. Sauron’s fall, on the other hand, was motivated by a wish of control. He didn’t want to destroy; he was just obsessed with control and Order. How he ever perceived Morgoth as an opportunity for greater Order is a good question. Answering SGH question about other independent Evils I would say that, to me, the later Sauron is the greatest independent of all.
__________________
**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
|
12-07-2002, 03:11 AM | #30 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Hey, where's all the other Sil posters?
Should we just move on to the next chapter? I know this chapter's not too lively...
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-07-2002, 08:55 AM | #31 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: charlotte, n.c.
Posts: 1,081
|
Quote:
|
|
12-07-2002, 11:29 AM | #32 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
At the end of the three weeks it will be time for the next chapter. I am very disappointed at the lack of interest in the project, and the lack of volunteers taking chapter assignment.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-07-2002, 12:03 PM | #33 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Well, if Tolkien had kept a secret manuscript about the sex life of the Valar, we would have had some livly discussion.
|
12-07-2002, 12:08 PM | #34 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Was anything wriiten, besides on Morgoth, on the tendency of Auniur who wore a particular body for a long while to get deeply attached to it? The balrog which fled to Moria reatained his, when all logic of fleeing and hiding would have said change to something less conspicuous.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
12-07-2002, 03:24 PM | #35 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
I think that's a facinating concept, an immortal being "attached" to it's body in more ways than one. It's like when Gandalf became the White, how he seemed to forget who he had been before. I like to try to visualize the Valar, and I have trouble with Ulmo, for some reason. The others I have a general mental picture of (I don't know if the pictures are "right"), and I try to imagine what it would be like for them to experience "life," as in inhabiting a bodily form, and yet be basically "gods." That's why it really does remind me of the Greek pantheon. Maybe I can't picture Ulmo as well because it states that he seldom inhabits a body! Duh! I just thought of that.
|
12-07-2002, 04:43 PM | #36 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
I find it hard to believe that the Ainur would attach so strongly to their physical shapes. Their bodies was not a part of them, but more like raiment, and they chose their shape to be in likeness to the Children of Iluvatar, only far more beautiful and great in splendour.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
12-07-2002, 05:09 PM | #37 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
I just re-read this chapter, and noticed a few lines telling about how Manwë's and Varda's abilities were enhanced when they were together:
Quote:
Another little detail I noticed: It says of Melian that "Nightingales sang about her wherever she went". Interesting then, that Beren should call her daughter by the name Tinuviel, which means Nightingale. Coincidence, or not?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|
12-07-2002, 05:39 PM | #38 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Not a coincidence. Being around her mother, and thus the nightengales, she would have had much exposure and oportunity to aquire musical motif and technique for the nightengales, held be be among the very beng songbirds.
|
12-07-2002, 05:52 PM | #39 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I've never heard a nightingale sing before - has anyone else? I've always heard that they are supposed to be very beautiful, though. Wasn't there a story about a Chinese emperor that heard a nightingale and had one sing for him? I can't recall the details, I think he was sick or something.
I like the relationship aspect of your quote too, Artanis - that's why I put together that sibling/spouse list, which I found interesting. Did you? I don't remember any of the other Valar becoming attached to their bodies like Morgoth did. I suppose Melian did, however, so she could wed Thingol. But more on that in chpt. 4.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-07-2002, 05:57 PM | #40 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|