02-15-2005, 10:00 AM | #21 | |
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Luthien didn't somehow bind him, nor even plead for Mandos to hold him. He tarried in the halls of Mandos. Any Mortal could likely do that, had they reason enough.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 02-15-2005 at 10:02 AM. |
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02-15-2005, 10:25 AM | #22 | |
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Actually though - Elendil was still top dog at this time. It's apparent that he had not yet fallen and that Isildur did not have the Ring when he received the Oath at Erech - for otherwise the Men who swore the Oath would have no opportunity to break it, since at that time, Sauron was evidently defeated and the trouble was past. It seems that the Oath was the thing. It may have helped that Isildur had some sort of royal standing... it may have been something special about the Stone of Erech - but the taking of the Oath seems to have been the key.
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02-15-2005, 10:59 AM | #23 |
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All that are left of the Numenoreans that honor Eru ARE the Dunedain...
I doubt any of the Black Numenorians hold much with worshiping Eru... But no, what I was pointing out was that even if the King of Westernesse was titled with High Preist, it wouldn't supercede Manwe, who had already noted that he couldn't hold the souls of men, nor stave off death... not without special dispensation anyway....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-15-2005, 04:03 PM | #24 |
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I agree with Wayfarer. It was the oath that bound them, obviously an oath to Eru as has been posted. Consider the power of the Oath of Fëanor, as has been alluded to, and the Oath that Gollum swore on the Precious, which has not. Obviously, the Ring is not Eru, but this is but another example of the terrible power of oaths in Tolkien's world.
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02-15-2005, 04:19 PM | #25 | ||
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I hope you know what I'm trying for P.S. The 90 second rule is realy anyoying!
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02-15-2005, 04:29 PM | #26 | |
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02-15-2005, 06:37 PM | #27 | |
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NOOOO! Don't double it!! IT's really annoying for us fast typists!!
Anywho, am in a tearing hurry but found an interesting quote from Letter #156 - Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-15-2005 at 06:38 PM. |
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02-17-2005, 07:51 PM | #28 | |
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R*an, I quite agree. About the Name of Eru, not the fast typing.
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02-18-2005, 01:26 AM | #29 | ||
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However, how often were oaths made that included the name of Eru? From the Silmarillion, emphasis mine own: Quote:
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02-18-2005, 01:07 PM | #30 |
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Main Entry: oath
Function: noun 1 : a solemn attestation of the truth of one's words or the sincerity of one's intentions; specifically : one accompanied by calling upon a deity as a witness Seeing as Tolkien was a philologist, I somehow doubt that he would have called an oath an oath unless it actually invoked the name of a divine witness. Otherwise he would have called it a vow.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-18-2005, 07:47 PM | #31 | ||
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What's the Meneltarma? It seems relevant to this thread.
Another powerful Oath is the one made by the Stewards of Gondor to uphold the line of the King! This causes them (essentially) to turn over the throne to a distant King who appears as if out of legend, after hundreds of years of successful and stable rule by the Stewards.
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02-18-2005, 07:50 PM | #32 |
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meneltarma is the mountain in the middle of numenor, has a hallow to eru on the summit, but no other temple or such like.
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02-18-2005, 08:10 PM | #33 | ||
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From "Minas Tirith" in "The Return of the King." Quote:
And also considering that Tolkien was a philologist, I don't think the word "even" would have been thrown in to the description of the Oath of Fëanor if swearing to Eru was a common occurrence.
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02-19-2005, 03:09 AM | #34 | |
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But then Tolkien may have been operating under the assumption of the faithful Numenoreans as "elevated humanity", at least from a christian viewpoint. 'The precept, "Swear not at all," refers probably to ordinary conversation between man and man (Matt. 5:34,37). But if the words are taken as referring to oaths, then their intention may have been to show "that the proper state of Christians is to require no oaths; that when evil is expelled from among them every yea and nay will be as decisive as an oath, every promise as binding as a vow." ' In other words, the oath would have been understood to name Eru as witness, without direct invocation.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-19-2005, 09:28 PM | #35 | ||
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P.S. What is the reson for the 90 second rule?!?
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02-21-2005, 12:53 PM | #36 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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02-21-2005, 02:33 PM | #37 |
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I doubt that denethor would have used a special form for a hobbit.
I can only reiterate that it is a strange form for a fealty oath. Tolkien also would have been very aware of the form, so there's probably a definate reason for the omission... If you could figure it out you could proabably get a master's thesis out of it...
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02-21-2005, 05:02 PM | #38 |
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LM - perhaps Denethor would not invoke the name of Eru in that oath because of his OWN rebellion... his unwillingness to step aside for the Man who would be King. Note that the oath is one of loyalty to the Steward... not to the King himself.
I did not think enough about this to be convinced of it... it was just a passing thought. What do the rest of you think?
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02-21-2005, 05:36 PM | #39 | |
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We're not done. First of all, Blackheart is claiming that it was Eru, not a Vala, who did it. Though I might have some problems with the concept, I think it's theoretically acceptable. The Valar, however, clearly do not have the power to do such a thing. Val... it still holds, I think, that as far as I know (will have to check up on it later), we only have one instance where an oath included the name "Eru", and in this case, it was said that they swore even by Eru... And I've mentioned that twice, so I'll quit with that particular argument now... It is an interesting thought, but I'm not convinced that oaths were usually sworn to Eru. You'd think that after the First Age, they'd have learned to do away with oaths altogether...
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02-21-2005, 05:45 PM | #40 | |
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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