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01-28-2003, 12:34 AM | #21 |
The Insufferable
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I think that's a badly worded question. If you were Saruman, you would obviously do exactly what he did. The better question is: What would you do in his place.
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01-28-2003, 10:18 AM | #22 | |||
Elven Warrior
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01-28-2003, 10:43 AM | #23 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Why didn't he have the right? He was the head of the Order now, and also a high power amongst those who overthrew or conquered Saruman. Seems to me like he certainly did have the right.
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01-28-2003, 10:58 AM | #24 |
The Insufferable
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I think you're asking the wrong question again. The issue isn't whether Gandalf had the right to demand his key, it's whether saruman had the right to keep it.
Remember, he was given the key to orthanc by the very people who he was working to destroy. If that isn't grounds for an eviction, I don't know what is.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
01-28-2003, 09:20 PM | #25 | ||
Elven Warrior
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...and I'd put doilies on all the side tables....
Sure, Gandalf had the right to break Saruman's staff, if Saruman didn't clean up his act quickly (and he didn't). But Orthanc, now, that was a different matter:
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Saruman had, of course, abrogated his right to Isengard by his treason, especially as it had been found out. But Gandalf was never the agent of Gondor, and certainly not at that point; indeed, he and Denethor were snarling at other most all the time when he did go down there. He could neither rightfully take the keys nor promise to give them back again, if S. behaved himself. Of course, one could argue that Gandalf was the agent of the Valar, who outranked the kings, let alone the Stewards. But I think they should have gone into Treebeard's keeping, or at least that of Gondor's ally, Rohan (i.e., King Théoden).
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01-29-2003, 03:18 AM | #26 | ||
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Why wouldn't Gandalf be a good keeper? He's responsible, wise, and not overly ambitious.
True he hadn't yet moved against Gondor, but he might as well have because (1) he attacked Rohan, Gondor's allies, and (2) he was in league with Sauron, Gondor's enemy. He was a traitor, that's good enough for me. Besides, he was allowed to go free, even if it was staff-less and Orthanc-less. I think that was pretty nice.
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01-29-2003, 10:48 AM | #27 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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About Gandalf; he wasn't an agent of Gondor, but he WAS an agent of the Valar, and I believe Letters says he was indirectly an agent of Iluvatar. If you ask me, that is DARN fine credentials. That would basically give him the authority for mostly anything, as long as he stayed within the guidelines of his superiors, in my opinion.
EDIT: Gah! Somehow missed the last paragraph in LoI's post!
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01-31-2003, 09:38 AM | #28 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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I'm not saying he was bad to do that, BTW. I think he acted decisively to end the threat, and it worked. It just illustrates, very subtly, the power of evil to tarnish good, even in defeat. Quote:
A third possibility was that he was in league, or planned to be in league with Denethor (after presenting him with the fait accompli of a vanquished Rohan to force him to turn to Saruman for help), thus thinking he could have wriggled out of any commitments he may have made to Sauron and still come out on top. And such a partnership wouldn't have violated the terms of the lease at all. Quote:
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01-31-2003, 01:09 PM | #29 | ||||
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Maybe he was corrupted in that he was forced to use might instead of right. Even though, Aragorn could have taken the Key afterwards. One theme that comes up in the Sword and the Stone is Might for Right. Maybe it comes up in LotR as well. Quote:
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02-02-2003, 06:08 PM | #30 |
Elven Warrior
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i believe i would stay in orthanic until the ents left and then run as fast as the wind!
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02-02-2003, 06:30 PM | #31 |
Enting
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If I were me, I may have come down. As Saruman, I definitely would have stayed.
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02-03-2003, 10:10 PM | #32 | |||||
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Say, rather, that Gandalf the Maia was resident in Arda where the will of Melkor the Vala, "the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä," ("The Silmarillion," end of Chapter 7), still remained, as did the effects of his lies, and Gandalf like all others was vulnerable to its machinations, no matter what he did. Quote:
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"...But the Tower of Orthanc now goes back to the King, to whom it belongs. Though maybe he will not need it." "That will be seen later," said Aragorn. "But I will give to Ents all this valley to do with as they will, so long as they keep a watch upon Orthanc and see that none enter it without my leave." "It is locked," said Treebeard. "I made Saruman lock it and give me the keys. Quickbeam has them." Quickbeam bowed....and handed to Aragorn two great black keys of intricate shape, joined by a ring of steel. "Now I thank you once more," said Aragorn, "and I bid you farewell...." With Saruman now out of the way, here's Gandalf suddenly pointing out, again in Aragorn's presence, that Orthanc belongs to the King. A new thought comes up: maybe it was less corruption, though certainly that possibility was always present, and more Gandalf's awareness that it was not yet Aragorn's time and so he was shielding the man at first. It's also interesting that Treebeard didn't hand the Keys over to Aragorn himself but delegated that to a subordinate. Very symbolic of the different types of "ownership" of the area. Can't resist it: Quote:
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02-03-2003, 10:36 PM | #33 |
Elven Warrior
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if i were saruman, id be too afraid of the ents to leave the building
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02-04-2003, 09:34 AM | #34 | |
Enting
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"When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... |
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02-04-2003, 10:54 AM | #35 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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02-04-2003, 09:37 PM | #36 | ||
Elven Warrior
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02-04-2003, 10:32 PM | #37 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I know he was on his own in the beginning, but I could have sworn that he became Sauron's lieutenant, and then struck out on his own.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
02-05-2003, 10:11 AM | #38 |
Halfwitted
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In the book Saruman never sided with Sauron; he was working for his own ends and his own power the whole time. Only in the movie they changed it (possibly to make it less complicated, and to show that the Wise can also be corrupted...).
I don't think Gandalf wanted Orthanc for himself. What would he do with it? He had to be mobile at that time, not sitting in Isengard. He was needed in Gondor and in Rohan. I think he only wanted the key to Orthanc so that he could expel the danger on Rohan's flank for good by installing someone loyal. Then he would still have gone off on the same route he took, to Gondor and the Pelennor Fields.
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02-05-2003, 10:13 AM | #39 | |
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02-05-2003, 04:08 PM | #40 |
Enting
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I'm just saying that yes Saruman did have some rights to Orthance. Without magic (kept in his staff) he could do nothing and probably would have stewed up there with Wormtongue. What can I say? He was a ruined wizard and would remain so. Everyone deserves a little dignity. Besides, I am still mad beyond belief at what he did to the Shire! He probably wouldn't have done that if he was left in Orthanc.
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"When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... |
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