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05-10-2006, 05:44 PM | #21 |
Elven Warrior
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Posts: 306
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Landroval, we will just have to disagree on this one. You haven’t convinced me and it is clear that Gordis and I aren’t convincing you. I have this last little bit to say.
First, a lot of people will disagree with your definition of evil, me included. You might consider looking at the Evil in Middle Earth thread here at Entmoot. It is a very interesting thread, though a bit long. I actually didn’t call the Valar’s mistakes evil (at least thats not what I meant). I meant that their mistakes acted much like Melkor’s evil in that they served Eru’s plan in a way unforseen (yes, even by Manwe in my opinion). Technically though, many of the Valar’s mistakes could be considered evil. Also, if Manwe truly had the full understanding that you attribute to him then it means that he intended for the kinslayings to happen, he intended for everyone on Numenor to be slaughtered, he intended for Men to follow Morgoth and Sauron for thousands of years, etc., etc. Doesn’t that seem out of character to you? I prefer to think that he made honest mistakes rather than believe that he planned to allow (and even cause) so much evil for the Children of Eru and the rest of the world. The last thing I would like to say is this. I do think that Manwe and the other Valar had faith that, if they acted as they thought best, then they would be successfully serving Eru’s will in the end, despite the mistakes made along the way. Last edited by CAB : 05-10-2006 at 06:39 PM. |
05-11-2006, 11:44 AM | #22 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
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A surgeon/gardener/(whatever manager) is sometimes forced to remove certain "parts" of an organism, to prevent its complete failure; true enough, even a sadist would do probably the same thing, and, in an _extreme_ case, it would have the same beneficial outcomes for the sick person (not that it intended them anyway). What differentiates one action from the other is the purpose of the doer. For example, according to Atrabeth, Eru shortened Mankind's life span after they started following Melkor - so as to see what is real and what is good; in a much more intense manner, and on a more restricted level, this is done with the numenoreans (if I remember correctly, not even when following Melkor did the Men resort to such evils as the numenoreans did). Quote:
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Last edited by Landroval : 05-11-2006 at 11:56 AM. |
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05-11-2006, 07:54 PM | #23 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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I guess I have a little more to say after all.
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I’ll try to explain my thinking this way. I am not Wayfarer, so there may be some flaws here, but this is basically how I see things: 1. If Manwe had a true understanding of Eru’s will and knew the full consequences of his actions then he made the Ban (and did many other things) in order to draw the Numenoreans to attack Valinor so that they could be destroyed. These events were part of Eru’s plan since it is impossible to go against it (as you correctly pointed out Landroval). Manwe would have purposely taken thousands of lives in the name of the grand design. 2. If Manwe had a true understanding of Eru’s will but didn’t know the full consequences of his actions then he made the Ban (and did many other things) because Eru told him to, either directly or in another way. In this case Manwe’s knowledge of anything other than Eru’s plan was worthless because all his actions would have to follow that plan to the letter regardless of Manwe's personal judgement. He would essentially be Eru’s puppet, a complete slave to fate (fate being Eru’s will). 3. If Manwe didn’t have a true understanding of Eru’s will but did know the full consequences of his actions then he made the Ban (yada, yada) in order to draw the Numenoreans to attack Valinor knowing that they would be destroyed but not necessarily knowing that this was part of the grand design. Manwe doesn’t seem like the bloodthirsty type. 4. If Manwe didn’t have a true understanding of Eru’s will or know the full consequences of his actions then he made the Ban (etc.) because he believed it was the proper thing to do given his limited knowledge. I don’t mean limited when compared to anyone other than Eru (and maybe Mandos in regards to consequences of actions), but still less than complete knowledge. He probably wouldn’t be planning for the Numenoreans to be destroyed (unlike scenarios 1 and 3) while still maintaining some free will (unlike scenario 2 and probably 1 also). Personally, I think this is the true scenario. [Edit: I guess I should say what I mean by “true”, especially since I am assigning it my own meaning. In this case true understanding means that Manwe had 100% accurate knowledge of Eru’s will in regard to any decision he (Manwe) personally had to make as the King of Arda. He may not have known “why” but did know “yes or no”.] The main problem with this view (specifically scenarios 3 and 4), I think, is that Manwe must have known that everything done is true to Eru’s will. Perhaps if the Valar faced some sort of judgement from Eru in combination with an acknowledgment of free will (which doesn’t seem unlikely) this problem with situations 3 and 4 would be removed. Quote:
There is at least one more option. Since everything that happens must be part of Eru’s design, then Manwe might have acted as he did knowing that he couldn’t do wrong (wrong in the sense that he opposed Eru’s will). Looking at things this way, Manwe, and everyone else, could simply do as they please without giving their decisions any thought at all. If Manwe and the other Valar faced Eru’s judgement (and I think they did), then this would probably be the most unlikely option of all. Last edited by CAB : 05-12-2006 at 04:40 AM. |
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05-12-2006, 05:03 AM | #24 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Excellent post, CAB.
I fully agree with you that evil intent isn’t necessary to make an action/inaction evil. Landroval was speaking of a surgeon killing a patient by mistake. It is evil, though unintentional. He could have asked a more skilled surgeon to do the operation, he had overestimated his own knowledge and skills, he should have practiced and learned more and so on. The same applies to a person negligent in his duties, or the one who decided not to act when he should have acted: they have no evil intent, but their inaction leads to a catastrophe. And so on |
05-12-2006, 11:27 AM | #25 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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I disagree. I would say that the outcome would be one of evil, but the action itself wouldn't be if there was no evil intent.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-12-2006, 02:04 PM | #26 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Tell this to employees of a nuclear plant who were innocently chatting while the reactor was overheating.
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05-12-2006, 03:53 PM | #27 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
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05-12-2006, 04:14 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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I agree with Landroval... and I think there's no point accusing them of evil as we don't know the possible consequences of any other action that could've been taken. Perhaps the outcome was the least-evil possible... and really the end wasn't that bad, and rather positive even.
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05-12-2006, 07:38 PM | #29 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Let’s leave the destruction of Numenor alone for a moment and look at an even more obvious mistake, the release of Melkor. I don’t see how this could be considered anything other than a screw up. The creator of evil is released and allowed to wander freely in Valinor, with all kinds of dire consequences. If it looks like a mistake, and smells like a mistake, and is made by someone who is known to be fallible (and Manwe was, because he wasn’t Eru) then it is probably a mistake. If we accept that the creation of the Dwarves was a mistake then I think the release of Melkor has to be considered one too. The results were much, much worse. I think the only other options were that the Valar were evil or had no free will (and I can’t agree with either of those). Quote:
Why did the Valar lay down their government if they were acting so wisely? Because they were in real peril? Let’s consider that for a moment. Landroval, I won’t argue the point that the Numenoreans could cause ruin in Valinor (as odd as that seems to me) because, as you point out, Tolkien said so himself in letter 131. (By the way, just after this statement, he wrote that the Valar appealed to Eru and received the “power and permission to deal with the situation”. This directly contradicts your opinion on these matters.) But they had to get there first didn’t they? Do you think that Ulmo and Osse were powerless to stop the Numenorean fleet. I don’t think so. There are many cases of the Valar and their servants sinking ships. They also succeeded in making Valinor all but unreachable after the Noldor returned to Middle Earth in the First Age. If your opinions are correct they had plenty of time to do this again, because they had determined that the Numenoreans were irredeemable a thousand years before. With all their wisdom, wouldn’t the Valar have assumed that an attack could come from Numenor? If the Valar decided that the Numenoreans were a lost cause, then you can’t argue that they allowed the fleet to reach Valinor in the hope that they would turn back. And what would they turn back to anyway? Causing problems for the people of Middle Earth instead, what else? This also brings up the question of why the Valar didn’t destroy Numenor long ago if it inhabitants were beyond all hope. They were allowed plenty of time to cause evil for the other people of Arda. Why, if their destruction was simply a matter of time? If the Valar were doing such a wonderful job, then why did they give up their government (or have it taken from them)? It isn’t because they were around only to combat Melkor, he had been gone for over three thousand years. To me all this just doesn’t add up. I respect your opinion Landroval, and your defense of Manwe, but I can’t agree with these ideas. Quote:
Last edited by CAB : 05-12-2006 at 07:44 PM. |
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05-13-2006, 03:45 AM | #30 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-13-2006, 06:19 AM | #31 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
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"Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame... When therefore the last portent came they heeded it little. For the land shook under them, and a groaning as of thunder underground was mingled with the roaring of the sea, and smoke issued from the peak of the Meneltarma. But all the more did Ar-Pharazon press on with his armament." They weren't even afraid of the host of eagles lead by Thorondor; the eagles are one of the most formidable hosts in all Arda, having defeated the dragons, while the Eagle King marred Melkor single-handedly. |
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05-13-2006, 06:51 AM | #32 | |
Elf Lord
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isn't all this talk of "evil", or "mistakes" or "better" or so forth and so on, rather disjointed?
I mean are you all ... when you make these various points and arguments, ... are you talking specifically and clearly from a human persepective? because many of these are really subjective - from a human being perspective, one might view the mass genocide of an entire Island as "evil" or the release of " i'm alright Jack" Melkor as a bit of a oopsy-daisy etc ... but is not the view of Eru or of the Valar an entirely different view, or standpoint, would they even consider such notions as "good" and "evil" in any recognisable framework or way as we do? In terms of our morality or thoughts, would these not be rather alien to them? Who thinks they would think of themselves that they were "above" such mortal minds and morailities as we view them from? *only has a few momments here - hopes this point hasn't already been made??* Gor: Quote:
since when was incompetence or innocence and chatting definitions of Evil??? really Gor !!! Again we come down to this central question: are we defining evil from a human perspective or from the perspectives of Valinoreans or Eru (is Eru even technically capable - at least in his mind, of being/ doing evil - as the ultimate Law????) . |
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05-13-2006, 09:30 AM | #33 | ||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Landroval and TD (and now Butterbeer too, sheesh), I am not going to get anymore into the meaning (or really definition) of evil. Why should I when Wayfarer already did this much better than I could? All I would be doing is repeating what he already said. Not that I consider him the ultimate authority, but these posts are right here on Entmoot, are very convincing, and are written under a Middle Earth framework. Quote:
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Last edited by CAB : 05-13-2006 at 09:35 AM. |
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05-13-2006, 11:39 AM | #34 | |||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by Landroval : 05-13-2006 at 11:40 AM. |
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05-13-2006, 01:42 PM | #35 | |||||||||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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There are also some logical problems with the quote you gave earlier. Why couldn’t the Valar destroy Angband (without Melkor) after they destroyed Utumno (with Melkor)? If releasing Melkor was a good idea, then wasn’t capturing him in the first place a bad idea? How would Manwe be breaking his word if he heard Melkor’s plea and rejected it? Quote:
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05-13-2006, 01:50 PM | #36 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I stay aside in this battle of giants. I was never smart enough to discuss the Nature of Evil. I know instinctively what is, and what isn't, but I hardly can define it.
But in almost all cases I agree with you, CAB! |
05-13-2006, 02:35 PM | #37 | |
Elven Warrior
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I don’t feel qualified to get into a deep discussion of evil either. That is why I have (almost entirely) leaned on Wayfarer’s explanation. For me, this isn’t the real issue though. The problem I have is with giving absolute credence to a few quotes while (apparently) disregarding (or at least undervaluing) all the opposing evidence found in Tolkien’s works. I think we have to use Tolkien quotes + story + logic to come to any real (or if real is impossible, then “reasonable”) answers. |
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05-13-2006, 03:19 PM | #38 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-13-2006, 03:47 PM | #39 | |
Elf Lord
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I just don't think we're in position to claim "the Valar were wrong", as we can't see the whole picture and they probably could.. neither you nor I can truly tell the consequences of any other action that may have been taken by the Valar. |
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05-13-2006, 10:09 PM | #40 | |||
Elven Warrior
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I know I am not a member of the Valar, but does being a Vala excuse one from all questioning of one’s actions? There is no real explanation given for why things were allowed to progress until the Numenoreans had to be exterminated. If there was a good reason, maybe the Valar would have given it. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to give some justification for such an action (or, more accurately, inaction)? Wouldn’t it be easier for Men to learn a lesson if they knew what that lesson was? Anyway, we can’t judge the results of actions that weren’t taken. Again, I agree. But why can’t we judge the results of actions that were taken? Some of the results were: many wars, hatred, suffering, etc. I don’t think the Valar allowed this purposely (but if you argue that they had full comprehension of the big picture, then you must think that they did). I recognize that in most cases things could have been worse than they actually ended up being. However, the destruction of Numenor (for one) is another matter. I don’t think the results could have been much worse than they were, but I don’t see why they couldn’t have been better (much better). Last edited by CAB : 05-13-2006 at 10:49 PM. |
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