Questions about Sauron's Physical status in the Third Age

[Pailan]

Originally posted by allsirgarnet
[B]Could it be that Sauron manifested himself "in the minds" of any who entered the dark tower "as a lidless eye".[B]

Yes I have hadt his thought as well.

[i][B]
So if Gollum was taken into Saurons presence he would be in Gollums mind so to speak,and so could then appear as he wished.[B]

I see your logic here.

[i]
Until he regains the ring he seems trapped within the Tower,able to project his thoughts either in someones direct presence (Gollum),The Palantir (Saruman) or by a specific link (9 rings).

So it seems that he has no physical or spiritual "existance" as such ,but that his "'will" is held within the Dark Tower ,able in some ways to influence those he has a specific link to.

Yes, but Gandalf in his return tells the three companions about his struggle with the "Eye of Mordor" to draw his gaze away from his borders. Gandalf has no link to sauron except on the spirtual plane, if you will.

[allsirgarnet]

He does have one link in that he carries one of the three Elven Rings,which although has no direct link with Sauron,does allow interaction in a defensive way,for example Galadriels statements about the struggle between them.

I'm not sure but wasnt Gandalf discussing Frodo wearing the ring just after Boromir tried to take it?,and he himself intervening to deflect Saurons gaze away from frodo.In that case it was the Ring itself which allowed Saurons will "eye" to extend to a non follower other than was usual.

Within the tale there is as you say a lot mentioned of Saurons Gaze,by which i think it means his focus.If he actually had the means to "'project" his will beyond the tower and leave Mordor itself,he would have known much more than he apparently did.

When refering to his gaze i think its the focusing of his "resourses" its talking about,such as spies,the Nazgul and such.Only when for example Frodo wears the ring in or near to Mordor is Sauron himself able to "zero in".

That was the main reason i think for loosing the Nazgul in the hunt for the ring to begin with,because apart from the Palantirs limited use in scrying,Saurons only means of gathering information or influencing events was through others.

Without a "link" as defined above,he seems to have been effectively blind.

[Tar-Elenion]

What JRRT said regarding Sauron's form in the Third Age was:
"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."
Letter 246

Sauon did not take the form of some disembodied eye.

[FrodoFriend]

Seeing as he's a Maia, he could probably take on the shape of big dark man or lidless eye at will. However, I think the phrase 'the black hand' is used metaphorically (like "his arm has grown long" or "his eye sees all"), to describe his influence. Sauron had more than just spies; he had a mental power to see and touch and change things from afar.

[allsirgarnet]

I'm not sure that as Frodofriend says Sauron did have such power in a general sense.If you look at what he actually does in the "'war" its very little directly,most of his work is done by his minions.

As a direct entity hes only apparent a few times,in the Palantirs,Galadriels mirror,Frodo near Rauros and his interigation of Gollum.

Everything else is either done or organised by his followers.If you give Sauron too much power to influence events DIRECTLY,then the tale as we know it has problems.

For example if Sauron had such power,why was he apparently blind to the one Rings whereabouts after Frodo reached Rivendell ?.As soon as the Nazgul reported back to him he would if so powered been able to watch Rivendell himself closely,but its clear that until Rauros and Frodo putting on the Ring,he had no real idea where it was.

This to me suggests a weakness and a dependency on his followers.Also regardless how he affects events he never seems able to leave the Dark Tower except in reaction (the Ring) to an event or when usng a Palantir.

Saurons real power and danger has to me always been his ability to influence others and use his strength of will.

[Pailan]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
What JRRT said regarding Sauron's form in the Third Age was:
"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."
Letter 246

Sauon did not take the form of some disembodied eye.

Thanks TE, perhaps for my birthday I will get a copy of the Letters.

[cian]

Hullo Tar-Elenion (again).

In addition to Tar-E's quote, there are other Letters references to Sauron's physicality. Another has JRRT explaining that it took "longer" for Sauron to rebuild his physical form after the Last Alliance, longer than it had after the fall of Númenor. Tolkien also wrote that Sauron was: "... always de-bodied when vanquished."