Faith Healings

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
That was an extreme time. There had to be some scheme to get people to become christian then.

When Jesus did miracles, he almost always specifically told the people to let no one know what had been done for them.

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
We don't live in as desperate a time now. We have enough evidence now for people to believe, I think there would be more of a reason for there not to be miracles... well not that type. People need faith. If it was made obvious by healing miracles, there would be no need for faith because it would be apparent that it were true.

Actually, you still would need faith. It's my belief that the faith aspect most strongly comes after the conversion- or that is how it has played out in my own experience. Before I met the Lord, I was incredibly afraid to set up an appointment for a meeting with him. I felt a need for him, but I didn't have the courage to ask for a date. I was afraid that my house of cards would be knocked down, and I would find out that God didn't exist.

Therefore, because I was too afraid to reach out to him, he reached out to me. I didn't have faith in him, sufficient for the meeting. He worked with me anyway. He came and spoke to me, and I learned that he exists.

Since then, I have had to walk in faith, trusting in God to look after me, to have a plan for all the events in my life, etc. This walking in faith for me is the real difficulty. It is dotted with miraculous incidents, witnessing prayers answered and God incessantly faithful. Isn't it crazy how faithless we humans can be?

[Tessar]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Jesus did some rather wierd things too, like putting mud in a person's eyes. People touched Paul with handkerchiefs and brought them back, and their loved ones were healed. Isn't that wierd?


Note to nonbelievers: This is not an invitation to question the Bible. It's an argument from believer to believer.

Yes, but this man is clearly NOT Jesus.

I agree, it is possible, but I'm not going to throw all my faith into it and make a special trip down to be 'touched'. If it is for real, then it's great what he's doing for people, if not then... well... he'll get his 'reward' sooner or later .

[Mercutio]

It is possible...miracles, that is. For example: one night (a long time ago) at a church dinner, my dad was asked to pray for a fellow member who was going through cancer surgery the next day. They are on the operating table (that next day), opened up for surgery, and the cancer is completely gone! How do you explain that? And they most definitely had had cancer prior to that surgery.

As for the faith healers on tv? I too am a great skeptic. My high school church history teacher tried one of these tv faith healers, where you put your hands on the tv, and (surprise!) it didn't work at all. As a Christian, I don't believe God acts through his disciples now in the same way he did 2,000 years ago.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Tessar
Yes, but this man is clearly NOT Jesus.

I was simply pointing out that there is more than one incident where seemingly "weird" methods were used to cause miracles. So head bopping might sound weird, but that really doesn't mean it shouldn't work.

Originally posted by Mertucio
My high school church history teacher tried one of these tv faith healers, where you put your hands on the tv, and (surprise!) it didn't work at all.

Television is a mode of communication. God has reached out to people through books and pamphlets, which likewise are modes of communication. If God can access people through other methods, it shouldn't seem too impossible that he should make use of modern technology. He keeps up with the times. Some people have found God because of "The Passion of the Christ", which is a movie.

Originally posted by Mertucio
As a Christian, I don't believe God acts through his disciples now in the same way he did 2,000 years ago.

I suspect you merely believe that either

a) because you have not had the right experiences from God. Pray for them.

or

b) because you have not looked at the right material, or deeply into many of the current Christian ministries. There are books like "Open Doors", and "The Cross and the Switchblade", and "Like a Mighty Wind", that might cause you to feel differently.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Mertucio
It is possible...miracles, that is. For example: one night (a long time ago) at a church dinner, my dad was asked to pray for a fellow member who was going through cancer surgery the next day. They are on the operating table (that next day), opened up for surgery, and the cancer is completely gone! How do you explain that? And they most definitely had had cancer prior to that surgery.

Yes! That is one experience. One of what can become a COMMON Christian experience. They won't all be that dramatic.

I know that before I was baptized by the Holy Spirit I only had very few miraculous experiences.

There were two which I was so young during that I don't remember them, which were powerful. I only know about them because my parents told me about them.

One was when I was climbing around on an active electric fence, and was not harmed. My parents saw me, panicked, and grabbed me off. My grandfather was puzzled, because the fence was supposed to be electric. So he touched it and received a huge electric shock.

The other experience was when I was very little, and my mother was reading the Bible to me. Suddenly I pointed, and said that there was an angel standing by the wardrobe. I was very young, and I don't believe I lied. Of course, I don't know that, but I know that only once in my entire life since then have I really lied, and I wouldn't lie about something like that.

After those experiences, I only had a few which I can still remember (before the Baptism of the Holy Spirit), and those were not nearly so powerful. After that came the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.


Since the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I began to put together a "Spiritual Relationship" document, in which I chronicled my encounters with the Lord. I very quickly stopped mentioning my answered prayers, because they were far too numerous. That document has been going on for . . . probably two or three years now, and is well over three hundred pages long, full of various spiritual experiences. I've put together a separate one which is about thirty pages long, all including spiritual experiences regarding something else.

So these spiritual experiences do exist. These experiences haven't usually been as strong as the two ones that I mentioned, which I was too young to remember. I have had at least one that is that strong- at least that strong, which I do remember.

Simply because one hasn't had all of these experiences yet doesn't mean that they don't exist. Simply because they seem so foreign to common experience without them doesn't mean that they don't exist.


I personally think it's difficult to lump all television evangelists into one boat. I know quite a few Christians here that do not care much for their ministries, but then there are others like my grandmother who see some of them as great men with callings from God. It doesn't seem at all impossible that God (remember that he is God ) can use the TV .

[Valandil]

Sminty - you did it again! You start so many really good threads - and I'm always making mental notes to address the questions you raise - but too rarely get to it (usually it's something really thought-provoking and I try to wait until I think I'd have time to do justice to an answer - and that much time rarely comes at once).

I agree with what Tessar said though. I'm a Christian, and I DO believe in healing... but I don't think God does it everytime we ask - or in all circumstances. In other words, all the ingredients of faith, etc may be there, but, in His Wisdom, God still has the option to say 'yes' or 'no' (ED: God is not our waiter... we're His servants). I believe I've witnessed healings in some few cases... and have heard numerous first-hand accounts. (ED: I also joined in intense prayer for the healing of a friend with terminal illness - and he was not healed)

However, I also get very sceptical of 'canned, pre-packaged, made-for-TV' type healing services. Perhaps God IS at work there and they're totally on the up-and-up, but I tend to doubt it.

[Millane]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
When Jesus did miracles, he almost always specifically told the people to let no one know what had been done for them.

hahahaha tell Millane not to eat the chocolates in the kitchen because there for our friends - Millane runs to the kitchen and eats them as fast as he can... Jesus tells Millane not to tell anyone how he healed me - Millane runs and tells all his friends everything... how better for Jesus' story to spread, do some cool **** then say "now you cant say anything to your friends" one smart cooky that Jesus...
all these healers are are some dodgy businessmen who tap into a market (ohhh lets nab the christians today by making them believe we are Jesus Reborn!) and try and exploit people into feeding there sorry existence.
What about Rasputin, nobody could explain his 'healing powers' could they?, he should've self-stylized himself as some modern Jesus, who wouldnt follow Rasputin

[hectorberlioz]

Umm...geez Millane, if you're going to post in here, at least dont be sacriligious.

[Millane]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Umm...geez Millane, if you're going to post in here, at least dont be sacriligious.

why not ok but if you should visit the Marilyn Manson thread it should only be with praise

[hectorberlioz]

fine with me...

[Tessar]

But Lief if God healed us EVERY time we just asked for it, there would be no pain and suffering to offer up, and no benefit to having pain in the first place.

It's WONDERFUL every time some one is healed. My grandpa is dieing of Bone Cancer right now and I know I'd like him to be healed, but God hasn't healed him despite prayer, offering masses, or anything else. There HAS to be a benefit to suffering, although of course that's very easy for me to say, now that I'm in good health.

Lemme clear something up, would you be Roman Catholic, like myself, or Protestant Lief? Just trying to figure out where, or even if, our ideas might differ slightly.

Like Valandil said, I DO believe in miracles, but I tend to be more skeptical about the 'tv-dinner' healers.

And as for God doing strange things to cause the healing, it's a fact that he could've done it easily enough by just LOOKING at the people. He did it with the gestures so that people would have a sign. I don't think you need to be conked on the head to receive the grace of God. If you need a sign, then make the Cross on their forehead. The 'hitting' thing sounds very showy to me, and designed for a TV audience.

[Tessar]

Originally posted by Millane
hahahaha tell Millane not to eat the chocolates in the kitchen because there for our friends - Millane runs to the kitchen and eats them as fast as he can... Jesus tells Millane not to tell anyone how he healed me - Millane runs and tells all his friends everything... how better for Jesus' story to spread, do some cool **** then say "now you cant say anything to your friends" one smart cooky that Jesus...
all these healers are are some dodgy businessmen who tap into a market (ohhh lets nab the christians today by making them believe we are Jesus Reborn!) and try and exploit people into feeding there sorry existence.
What about Rasputin, nobody could explain his 'healing powers' could they?, he should've self-stylized himself as some modern Jesus, who wouldnt follow Rasputin

Haven't you ever done something and said to a little kid "Now don't tell your mommy I gave you that chocolate, okay?" and known that the kid would probably do it anyways, but hoped that maybe they wouldn't?

And for all we know, there WERE people who got healed and never said a word. Remember, if they didn't tell anyone, how are we to know about it? We'd only hear about the people who weren't able to keep quiet.

And of course Jesus was a 'smart-cookie', he was God you know .

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Umm...geez Millane, if you're going to post in here, at least dont be sacriligious.

Since when does being a president mean that you can censor.... oh wait, didn't the white house just try to do that with CNN? (anyone watching david letterman lately?) Of course I think faith healings are a load of cods-wallop, but don't let that stop you. I also happen to think that subliminal thoughts, and positive affirmation can go a long way towards healing body and mind. ::shrug::

[Lizra]

Ernest Angley! What a load of manure! Stick him in with Jim and Tammie Faye Baker, at "The Crystal Palace". I don't believe in miracles, I don't believe in faith healing. I DO believe some people will go to great lengths to convince themselves (and others) of something, because that is what they WANT to believe. Ernest Angley is just plain funny. HEAL!!! (Your toupee! )

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson

I personally think it's difficult to lump all television evangelists into one boat. I know quite a few Christians here that do not care much for their ministries, but then there are others like my grandmother who see some of them as great men with callings from God. It doesn't seem at all impossible that God (remember that he is God ) can use the TV .

I'm not saying God couldn't work through the tv--Anything is possible with God. I'm merely saying that because of the different environment/culture we live in now, he might (and I think probably) works differently than he did 2000 years ago. And I also think that these "healers" have truly convinced themselves that they are true Christians (and some of them may be) and because of that can do the same things that Jesus and the Apostles did.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I suspect you merely believe that either

a) because you have not had the right experiences from God. Pray for them.

or

b) because you have not looked at the right material, or deeply into many of the current Christian ministries. There are books like "Open Doors", and "The Cross and the Switchblade", and "Like a Mighty Wind", that might cause you to feel differently.

I don't know about that one...I'll go figure out exactly what I think and why today (maybe have a chat with my Dad ).

Hmm...*begins to ponder deep thougths*

[GrayMouser]

When soccer superstar David Beckham injured his ankle before the World Cup Tournament, and it looked like he might not be recovered in time to play for England, one of the British tabloids printed a full page picture of his foot on their front page, asking all their readers to put their hands on the picture and pray for a miracle.

When asked about the theological viewpoint on this, a bishop for the Church of England replied "Well, I suppose we can thank the Good Lord that it wasn't a groin injury"

[Lizra]

Oh Geez! That's rich!

I know a lady who carted her traumatic brain injured son down to Indpls to see Benny Hinn a few years back. Nothing happened...of course.

[Insidious Rex]

The power of human denial is immense. Heard a story a few weeks ago about this deaf woman who went down to somewhere in Brazil with a couple dozen americans looking to get cured by a guy in the jungle there who had a global reputation for curing untreatable conditions. They all went through a long process of weird rituals and were given mysterious medications (which were all the same no matter if you were deaf or were paralyzed or had brain cancer). Nobody got healed over the few weeks they were there (although they had a great time apparently) but all but ONE of them went home thinking well itll kick in soon or later. Even after nothing had happened for a year many of them went back thinking they needed to continue the process for it to work.

So the fact is that people in very dire end of the road health situations will resort to just about any straw to clutch to in the hopes of a miracle happening. And it will all make perfect sense to them. The power of the human mind to rationalize things when it comes to our very survival is enormous and some people take advantage of that fact to make themselves rich.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
The power of human denial is immense. Heard a story a few weeks ago about this deaf woman who went down to somewhere in Brazil with a couple dozen americans looking to get cured by a guy in the jungle there who had a global reputation for curing untreatable conditions. They all went through a long process of weird rituals and were given mysterious medications (which were all the same no matter if you were deaf or were paralyzed or had brain cancer). Nobody got healed over the few weeks they were there (although they had a great time apparently) but all but ONE of them went home thinking well itll kick in soon or later. Even after nothing had happened for a year many of them went back thinking they needed to continue the process for it to work.

So the fact is that people in very dire end of the road health situations will resort to just about any straw to clutch to in the hopes of a miracle happening. And it will all make perfect sense to them. The power of the human mind to rationalize things when it comes to our very survival is enormous and some people take advantage of that fact to make themselves rich.

I heard this on NPR yesterday--wow. The person also stuck a knife in the back of the patients head (something with the ritual). And they do fine. But, apparently, if you know what you are doing you can stick a knife in your head into the sinus cativity and it won't do anything (except bleed, obviously). It was all just for show.
I feel sorry for the people thinking that they can get a miracle in this way.