Faramir and Hector

Beren3000 · 10-11-2004, 07:49 AM

We've been doing excerpts of the Illiad for English class this week and I noticed some similarities between Hector and Faramir:

-Hector was called "the tamer of horses" and Faramir was known to be able to calm animals down with his gentleness (I don't have the exact quote for it, but it's there).

-All the people of Troy loved Hector, same with Gondor and Faramir.

-Neither Hector nor Faramir liked war, yet they both fought to keep their country and its honour safe.

-Faramir was the "good" brother and Boromir the "bad" one. Much like Hector and Paris.

-Minas Tirith, like Troy, was beset with a long siege.

-Also Hector was known in Troy for his "gentle" and "reasonable" speech. Much like the people of Gondor describe Faramir.

So what do you guys think, does the comparison hold water? Could the Illiad have been one of Tolkien's inspirations or is it just that such traits are so common that they are embedded subconciously into any heroic war story?

Michael Martinez · 10-11-2004, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

-Minas Tirith, like Troy, was beset with a long siege.

Wihle "The Iliad" was certainly one of Tolkien's sources, Minas Tirith did not undergo a ten-year siege.

You do make some interesting points about Faramir and Hector, though.

Imric · 10-11-2004, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

So what do you guys think, does the comparison hold water? Could the Illiad have been one of Tolkien's inspirations or is it just that such traits are so common that they are embedded subconciously into any heroic war story?

While Tolkien certainly drew on classical mythology (including the Homeric epics) as one of his many sources of inspiration for his legendarium, I believe that such influences are largely found in his earlier work. If I recall correctly, Mr. Martinez wrote an essay discussing parallels between the Iliad and the 'Fall of Gondolin' some years ago.

Attalus · 10-11-2004, 02:18 PM

Ah, Faramir had better fortune than Hector and found his Andromanche in Éowyn. He also didn't have his poor little son thrown off of the wall, but that is another, and much less pleasant, story.

Michael Martinez · 10-11-2004, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imric

While Tolkien certainly drew on classical mythology (including the Homeric epics) as one of his many sources of inspiration for his legendarium, I believe that such influences are largely found in his earlier work. If I recall correctly, Mr. Martinez wrote an essay discussing parallels between the Iliad and the 'Fall of Gondolin' some years ago.

Oh, he drew on classical influences across the whole kit and kaboodle. After all, the Numenor/Atlantis legend is a major theme in Middle-earth's history. People often point to his Roman Catholic influences in various ways. I don't know enough about Catholicism to distinguish between medieval themes, ancient themes, and/or modern themes, but I know people have argued there are elements from all periods of Roman Catholic theological development in Middle-earth.

Tolkien himself pointed out the Egyptian connections for Arnor and Gondor. He called the Rohirrim "Homeric horsemen". And so on. The classical influences are extensive.

Beren3000 · 10-12-2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attalus

Actually, I think Paris was quite evil. Very self-centered, never seemed to care that if it were not for his selfish desires, Troy would not have been in such a fix. At times, Hector seems quite exasperated with him.

I beg to differ. I agree with you of course that Paris was one who doomed all of Troy. But isn't he to be forgiven for giving in to temptation and to his lust for Helen? Isn't he to be forgiven because he couldn't have predicted that the Greeks would conduct a 10-year siege?
Plus, if you condemn Paris for his weakness for Helen, then you're also saying that BOROMIR IS EVIL which (IMHO) he was not.
I think that if anything can be blamed on Paris it's that he accepted to be a judge between Venus, Athena and Hera in the first place.

Michael Martinez · 10-12-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I beg to differ. I agree with you of course that Paris was one who doomed all of Troy. But isn't he to be forgiven for giving in to temptation and to his lust for Helen? Isn't he to be forgiven because he couldn't have predicted that the Greeks would conduct a 10-year siege?

I think a stronger argument in Paris' defence is that he was drawn into the conflict between three goddesses which Eris (Strife) had initiated. He is more tragic than evil, in my opinion, but is perhaps tragic like Turin: doomed to love a woman who truly couldn't be his.

inked · 10-12-2004, 04:04 PM

Then there is one crucial difference between Paris and Boromir in action, is there not?

Paris never repented his lust and law-breaking. Boromir did.

Both are tragic figures because they are caught up in struggles beyond their ken in one sense. The doom of the age in which they dwelt was with higher powers. But within that doom, they make choices and see consequences and then either continue in their choice or renounce it. The outcomes are quite different though both lose life.

Also the argument that great passion (eros in Greek and not limited to lust for woman or ring) justifies breaking the moral law is inadequate. There is no excusing Hitler the Holocaust because he had a passionate hatred of Jews is there? Nor Sadaam using nerve gas because he passionately hated Kurds? Or Lorena Bobbitt because she passionately hated adultery? In fact, the failure to resist the passion is the cause of the evil that follows in both cases of Paris and Boromir. For Boromir, the realization of the passion's effects and consequences results in correction, repentance, and -in a sense- a new start for the Quest. In Paris, refusal to abandon the passion and make repentance results in the destruction of Troy - even in the face of years of suffering and death.

If we justify every crime against the individual we victimize as due to a great passion, do we excuse it? I think both examples argue NOT.

Then again Paris has an inordinate amount of pride. He, mortal, accepts to be a judge among the goddesses! This is known as hubris in Greek thought (overweening pride or vaunting pride). It is this same hubris that refuses to admit his error in the matter of Helen. The same hubris that results in a siege of a decade and many deaths! Boromir has his hubris, too, but turns from it.

Hector bears his part too for not upbraiding his brother and getting him to do the right thing. Imagine Aragorn supporting Boromir had he obtained and kept the Ring successfully. So Paris' failure has contributing causes but not excuses.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 10-11-2004, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

-Faramir was the "good" brother and Boromir the "bad" one. Much like Hector and Paris.

I wouldn't say that Boromir was the bad brother, just that they were very different.

Beren3000 · 10-11-2004, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I wouldn't say that Boromir was the bad brother, just that they were very different.

One could also argue along the same lines that Paris wasn't exactly "bad". Come to think of it, he wasn't. Both him and Boromir succumbed to temptation and in that way were "sinful", if you will.

Attalus · 10-11-2004, 05:37 PM

Actually, I think Paris was quite evil. Very self-centered, never seemed to care that if it were not for his selfish desires, Troy would not have been in such a fix. At times, Hector seems quite exasperated with him. Boromir never caused such grief, though if he'd gotten the Ring, he might have!

Haradrim · 10-11-2004, 08:15 PM

I have never thought to compare the two but now that it has been brought up I do find that these similarities do seem to hold water. THough I do think the siege of GOndor and the siege of Troy do not have similarities. The wars were for different reasons and the wars were considerably different in length and the Gondor won while Troy lost.

10-11-2004, 07:49 AM	#1
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Faramir and Hector We've been doing excerpts of the Illiad for English class this week and I noticed some similarities between Hector and Faramir: -Hector was called "the tamer of horses" and Faramir was known to be able to calm animals down with his gentleness (I don't have the exact quote for it, but it's there). -All the people of Troy loved Hector, same with Gondor and Faramir. -Neither Hector nor Faramir liked war, yet they both fought to keep their country and its honour safe. -Faramir was the "good" brother and Boromir the "bad" one. Much like Hector and Paris. -Minas Tirith, like Troy, was beset with a long siege. -Also Hector was known in Troy for his "gentle" and "reasonable" speech. Much like the people of Gondor describe Faramir. So what do you guys think, does the comparison hold water? Could the Illiad have been one of Tolkien's inspirations or is it just that such traits are so common that they are embedded subconciously into any heroic war story?

10-11-2004, 02:18 PM	#4
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Ah, Faramir had better fortune than Hector and found his Andromanche in Éowyn. He also didn't have his poor little son thrown off of the wall, but that is another, and much less pleasant, story. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-12-2004, 04:04 PM	#8
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Then there is one crucial difference between Paris and Boromir in action, is there not? Paris never repented his lust and law-breaking. Boromir did. Both are tragic figures because they are caught up in struggles beyond their ken in one sense. The doom of the age in which they dwelt was with higher powers. But within that doom, they make choices and see consequences and then either continue in their choice or renounce it. The outcomes are quite different though both lose life. Also the argument that great passion (eros in Greek and not limited to lust for woman or ring) justifies breaking the moral law is inadequate. There is no excusing Hitler the Holocaust because he had a passionate hatred of Jews is there? Nor Sadaam using nerve gas because he passionately hated Kurds? Or Lorena Bobbitt because she passionately hated adultery? In fact, the failure to resist the passion is the cause of the evil that follows in both cases of Paris and Boromir. For Boromir, the realization of the passion's effects and consequences results in correction, repentance, and -in a sense- a new start for the Quest. In Paris, refusal to abandon the passion and make repentance results in the destruction of Troy - even in the face of years of suffering and death. If we justify every crime against the individual we victimize as due to a great passion, do we excuse it? I think both examples argue NOT. Then again Paris has an inordinate amount of pride. He, mortal, accepts to be a judge among the goddesses! This is known as hubris in Greek thought (overweening pride or vaunting pride). It is this same hubris that refuses to admit his error in the matter of Helen. The same hubris that results in a siege of a decade and many deaths! Boromir has his hubris, too, but turns from it. Hector bears his part too for not upbraiding his brother and getting him to do the right thing. Imagine Aragorn supporting Boromir had he obtained and kept the Ring successfully. So Paris' failure has contributing causes but not excuses. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-12-2004 at 04:13 PM.

10-11-2004, 05:37 PM	#11
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Actually, I think Paris was quite evil. Very self-centered, never seemed to care that if it were not for his selfish desires, Troy would not have been in such a fix. At times, Hector seems quite exasperated with him. Boromir never caused such grief, though if he'd gotten the Ring, he might have! __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-11-2004, 08:15 PM	#12
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	I have never thought to compare the two but now that it has been brought up I do find that these similarities do seem to hold water. THough I do think the siege of GOndor and the siege of Troy do not have similarities. The wars were for different reasons and the wars were considerably different in length and the Gondor won while Troy lost. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...