08-24-2008, 03:12 AM | #21 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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Let's hope that my problems with the net were temporary. I'm writing this on my Mom's com again. So I guess it may not even have had anything to do with that site. Stay away from it, nonetheless.
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08-24-2008, 03:01 PM | #22 |
Salt Miner
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Always better safe than sorry. Norton Symantec offers free, online virus and security scans at its website.
Now back to our regularly-scheduled programming. Anyone want to take a stab (pun, pun) at how the Nazgul entertained themselves during the first millennium or two of the Third Age? Last edited by Alcuin : 08-24-2008 at 03:04 PM. |
08-24-2008, 05:46 PM | #23 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I guess every one returned to his respective people and tried to forge a kingdom there. As for the three Numenoreans, I wouldn't be surprised if they were among the Black Numenoreans in Umbar and further South. Then Umbar got conquered by Gondor around TA 1000 and the Witch-King had to find a new home - this time in Angmar. And there is a question: weren't the nazgul interested to find the location of the One Ring? Or were they as happy as the wielders of the Three to keep the One lost? |
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08-24-2008, 10:48 PM | #24 |
Salt Miner
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Another good question along those lines is why Sauron found it necessary – or at least useful – to hold the Nine Rings himself during the War of the Ring. Had he no leverage or lessened leverage over the Men unless he possessed their rings? If that is the case, how did he bring them back into line during the Third Age? It isn’t as if any of them would have failed to recognize him after his destruction at the end of the Second Age, when he lost his ability to assume a fair form. I don’t believe Tolkien ever addresses these questions in the published corpus.
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08-25-2008, 08:52 AM | #25 |
Elf Lord
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I had the same question in mind, Alcuin. If they wore their rings while Sauron was impotent, and Sauron had to have their rings in hand to control them, how did he ever persuade them to return the rings to him?
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08-25-2008, 09:44 AM | #26 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Edit: there was this thread about the question you ask: Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? Last edited by Gordis : 08-25-2008 at 09:54 AM. |
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08-25-2008, 12:46 PM | #27 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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08-26-2008, 06:14 AM | #28 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks, Coffeehouse!
I have re-read the thread and now I find that I like the third idea advanced by CAB best: http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?...1&postcount=85 The nazgul still wore their rings when Sauron lost his; they became independant and free, until Sauron collected their Rings. Now I think CAB was right thinking that the Witch-King's ring was the last of the Nine Sauron collected and Sauron got it between 1975 and 1980. The nazgul in Minas Morgul were likely already ring-less. |
09-01-2008, 03:30 PM | #29 |
Hobbit
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Thanks for all the answers, even the russian detour was somewhat interesting.
CAB:s ideas are really inspiring. The reason for asking, apart from pure curiosity, is that I'm writing a rpg adventure set during the gondorian kinstrife where it would be nice to have a lost nazgul ring of power as a plot device. Would it be possible that the witch king lost his ring during the war of the last alliance but reformed without it and rose to power in Angmar? |
09-01-2008, 06:10 PM | #30 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Better make it a dwarven ring or a lesser Ring - there had to be a few around. |
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09-01-2008, 09:26 PM | #31 |
Elf Lord
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Yeah, a lost ring of power would most likely be Dwarven, not Elvish or Nazgul.
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09-02-2008, 01:40 AM | #32 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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A Dwarven Ring - one of the Seven - could have easily been acquired after the big battle where many Dwarves were slain: some on the Alliance side, some on Sauron's. Perhaps whole clans have been wiped out with no relative nearby to take the Ring from a dead Dwarf-Lord. A man could have found a slain dwarf with a now-visible Ring after the battle. He could have found bones of the dwarf centuries later as well, either at the Dagorlad - Dead Marches or near the ruins of Barad-Dur.
Tolkien used to play with the idea that Saruman's ring was one of the Seven, but later abandoned it. So some of the Seven could be unaccounted for. A Dwarven ring, when used by a mortal, would hardly differ from a Nazgul's ring in its effects: it would render a mortal man invisible and later cause him to fade. (The Seven were unable to do so to a Dwarf - but that is explained solely by the tough nature of the Children of Aule). Much like the Nine, the Seven were made with Sauron's direct involvement using his know-how and "perverted". Then again, any Great Ring, any of the 20, is a danger to a mortal. Also note that a random Third Age Man would likely know next to nothing about Rings. |
09-02-2008, 01:54 PM | #33 |
Elf Lord
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You rock as always, Gordis.
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09-02-2008, 04:25 PM | #34 | ||||
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It is amusing to consider the fate of a dragon that “consumed” one of the Great Rings. Presumably, nothing would happen: the ring would be destroyed by the dragon’s fire; but that’s the simplest (and probably correct) assessment. Imagine some big wyrm in the Withered Heath, eating a dwarf-lord, and just as he’s picking the last of the armor from between his fangs, – poof! – off to the wraith-world! So he’d be one richer, stronger, more persuasive, invisible dragon! (Probably not: Gandalf later told Frodo in that same conversation that, “It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough…” (Maybe the last was Smaug?)) It's just a thought. Quote:
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It is quite possible, by the way, that outside the two branches of the House of Elendil, few Men knew anything about the Rings of Power. Boromir and Faramir as sons of the Steward of the House of Anárion were certainly familiar with the information, and perhaps Théoden was, too; but it could hardly have been widespread knowledge. Elrond’s speeches at the Council of Elrond would indicate that information about the other Rings was pretty tightly controlled. I wonder if even the Númenóreans knew about them during the War between the Elves and Sauron midway through the Second Age. |
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09-03-2008, 03:22 AM | #35 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thank you, DPR!
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But I believe Saruman could only learn that the Dwarven settlement XXX, whose lord likely had a Ring, had been destroyed by a dragon. Now - was the Ring lost? Was it destroyed by the dragon? Was it swallowed? Was it kept in the dragon's hoard in his lair? Had Sauron got it from the Dragon later? I don't see how any of these questions could be answered. The info: "three Sauron got, four are destroyed" was a guess at best - communicated to the White council in Saruman's persuasive voice, so they believed it without question. However, Gandalf's estimation seems to be accurate, after all: the messenger from Mordor who came to Dain said: "Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever." So Sauron, indeed, had at least three of the Seven. Therefore, I have another hypothesis. The Rings were somehow interconnected, so maybe with the loss of each Ring out of the 19, the wielders of the other Rings could feel it. Maybe all the Rings were losing some of their power with one of the 19 unmade, much like they lost ALL their power with the Ruling Ring unmade. Then the wielders of the Elven Rings could say with utmost surety: now there are only 15 rings + the One left in the world. But here we are writing fantasy, as there is little support for such an idea in Tolkien's work. Also such an idea leads to a corollary: had Celebrimbor mastered enough guts to destroy all the 19 back in Eregion, then the One would have lost its power and Sauron would have been either destroyed or shorn of a large part of his power. Quote:
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Isildur: "But how on Earth?" Gil-Galad: "Uhm, sorry.. he has this Ring, you know..." Isildur: "What Ring?" Gil-Galad: "Ahem, it is a long story. In Eregion long ago... ... ..." Isildur: "You, accursed hypocrites! So that's why the late King listened to Zigur so readily? That's why three of my noble ancestors suddenly turned all evil and transparent? Now THIS time I am not gonna fight Sauron alone to save your noble hindquarters, while you are busy singing your lays. Mobilize your pointy-eared loafers and join us, unless..." Last edited by Gordis : 09-03-2008 at 03:42 AM. |
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09-03-2008, 10:29 AM | #36 |
Hobbit
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I think that the nazgul in some ways was permanently bent to Saurons will, even after he lost the ring. I like the idea with some kind of autonomy during the first half of the third age but when Sauron was strong enough he could just call them and they would follow. He didn't have to capture them, he just had to become strong enough to be their undisputed master again.
He then kept the nine himself because without the one ring he couldn't dominate any possible new owner in the same way he dominated the nazgul. Any elf, man or wizard powerful enough to defeat a nazgul could cause great problems for Sauron if the victory included a ring of power. |
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