06-10-2006, 02:35 PM | #21 | ||
Elven Warrior
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06-10-2006, 02:50 PM | #22 | ||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Welcome to Entmoot Zilbanne and thank you for your comments ecthelion. My opinions on this matter have changed a little bit and, also, I don’t think I explained myself terribly well before, so I will try again.
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I can recall only one instance when we actually see (what we know to be) someone becoming a wraith; Frodo after being stabbed with a Morgul blade. What are the similarities between what is happening to Frodo with his Morgul wound and to Gollum with the Ring? Are there any? Of course we can’t know, but to me it seems likely that wraith-making was too complicated to be a mere side effect. The preserving of life and twisting process, however, probably were simple enough (or closely enough related to the rings’ original purpose) to be side effects, in my opinion anyway. Quote:
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Last edited by CAB : 06-10-2006 at 03:02 PM. |
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06-10-2006, 04:44 PM | #23 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Look what the Valar did to Morgoth! CAB, I have to disagree with your idea that the One, unlike the 9, didn't turn men into wraiths eventually. I have found a quote about it: Quote:
Also the One DID confer invisibility- and using the invisibility function seems to be DIRECTLY connected with becoming the wraith at the end: Quote:
But yes, CAB, you are right, Gollum hadn't faded - he hadn't even BEGUN to fade, he way Frodo faded after Weathertop. For instance, at the Ford, Frodo saw the nazgul faces even without his Ring, while Gollum was absolutely unable to see Bilbo wearing the Ring. So clearly, with Gollum, the process was VERY slow. Some argue that he didn't use the Ring much, but I favour his special hobbit resistance. The same was true for Frodo - with the Morgul knife. He had the shard in him for 17 days! The nazgul themselves believed that he would turn into wraith in a day or two, so they stopped following the company. (They could and should! have followed them after Weathertop, but they even let the company cross the Road unchallenged and lost them again. Even if they did it on purpose , they had to explain it to Sauron somehow, hadn't they? I believe they told Sauron something like "Who could have thought that the midget would resist the shard for two weeks?" ) Last edited by Gordis : 06-10-2006 at 04:46 PM. |
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06-10-2006, 05:24 PM | #24 | |
Elven Warrior
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Sauron was given a chance of repentance, as Melkor was given once too. Manwe "left him room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation", so I doubt that Sauron would have met Melkor's "end". |
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06-10-2006, 05:45 PM | #25 | |||
Elven Warrior
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Gordis, I don’t think there really is a right answer to this question. There are problems with any one view, as far as I can tell.
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I have started to think that maybe Hobbit resistance is due more to thier lack of ambition and evil tendancies than any physical or mental strengths. Gollum seems to have been an exception to this general trait of Hobbits and he was more easily seduced by the Ring than anyone else. So, I don’t see him not becoming a wraith due to resistance, but rather because there was no wraith making process present. As for Frodo and his Morgul wound, it is possible that the Ring actually aided his fight against “wraithdom”. The rings preserved their mortal owners’ lives. Frodo’s life would have essentially been ended by the Morgul blade. So, maybe the Ring helped to extend Frodo’s life by holding off his “wraithification”. I’d like to make up some more “wraith” words, but I’ll stop here. |
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06-10-2006, 05:53 PM | #26 |
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or maybe, there was a bit of evil in gollum before the murder, as well as the murder itself. but then he repented for his sins when he got inside the misty mountains. therefore, he's not turned into a wraith because he did an evil deed, but truely repented, so the ring has nothing to work on.
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06-11-2006, 03:21 AM | #27 |
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Well, he did commit canybalism (he was eating orcs in the Hobbit, and intended to eat Bilbo too, and there is a line somewhere in LotR about Gollum eating elven children).
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06-12-2006, 02:40 AM | #28 |
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yes, but that was to survive.
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06-12-2006, 08:55 AM | #29 | |
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I disagree; there is no mentioning of scarcity of food where Gollum used to live (the great goblin also used to send his underlings to bring fish from the lake); plus, in the Mirkwood, where he was snatching from cradles, he proves to be very versatile - and cruel too:
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06-12-2006, 08:59 AM | #30 |
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ok, maybe it was for a bit of variety.
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06-12-2006, 10:12 AM | #31 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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One can't survive on fish for 500 years, though it is a healthy food, prolonging lives, I heard. Perhaps Gollum has not turned into a wraith because of his fish diet? |
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06-12-2006, 11:34 PM | #32 | |
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Perhaps, cooling off the Ring in the river reduced the potency. Remember, the Ring was so hot, so Isildur can't even touch it. I think, Gandalf has activated it by throwing the Ring in the fire. This why the Ring's effect on Frodo was more fast and dramatic. |
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06-13-2006, 02:57 AM | #33 | |
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06-13-2006, 04:48 PM | #34 |
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If, this is true, and we take into other accounts the the morgul-blade sped up the wraithing prosess, then why didn't Frodo become a wraith whilst the lotr happens?
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06-13-2006, 06:03 PM | #35 |
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Well, Frodo had the Ring fot less than 20 years, and he was more or less healed of the Morgul wound, at least the splinter was removed.
Surely it took much more than 20 years to turn even the weakest of Men into a wraith- don't forget Gandalf says "their life seemed endless" |
06-14-2006, 06:35 AM | #36 |
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Good point.
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06-14-2006, 01:34 PM | #37 |
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Gordis And CAB Thanks sincerely for the Welcome!
Somehow I think the nine men who became the Nazgul didn't become wraiths until well after their normal life spans, unless possibly they were stabbed with morgul blades before that. Sort of like what almost happened to Frodo because of his stabbing. Frodo and Bilbo might never have become wraiths in the way that the nine did, because they weren't of bad character. Personally I think all the ONE ring could do to them, in their relative innocence, was prolongue their lives. Gradually and probably very gradually ,the ring may have influenced Bilbo and Frodo towards evil. It would take far longer than the quickway it worked on the nine men who became the nazgul or of course upon poor Smeagol. Those nine men were probably already greedy and power hungry before they were offered their rings. So the evil effect of the rings likely started through their own greed. The Baggins hobbits intended to be good and always were good in a societal way and were never to be personally violent or even indulge in anything that could eventually lead to anything evil. Bilbo very sweetly used the power of invisbility from ring mostly to get out of the way of the Sackville-Baggins. Bilbo could have used the ring to bother other hobbits in a malicious way or plunder other hobbit holes but those as even possibilities would probably never even occur to Bilbo because he was so essentially good. Frodo was going the way of a wraith because he was stabbed. Like Bilbo he didn't desire to use the ring for any personal gain either. Gollum's personal change after his possesion of the ring, began with murder and he became feral and animalistic in a twisted, toadish, froggish sort of way. Maybe by the time Bilbo meets up with Gollum, he was on the way to becoming a wraith but would be this strange looking reptilian type of wraith, always quite different from the more usual mannish type. The ring amplified the feral parts of his nature which were already there before the ring came, but amplified them to an extreme degree. I think Smeagol was a kind of hobbit juvenille delinquent and was weak psychologically inside himself. The ring was quickly able to exploit his worst qualities because of his basic weak mindedness. I think without the ring's evil quickly invading his weak mind, Smeagol may have continued to act like a hoodlum. However he would probably not have become a murderer or bestial and cannabalistic either. The ring pushed his weak mind towards his feral, beastial nature and brought it out until Smeagol was overwhelmed by it all and became gollum completely. Without interferrence from the ring, Smeagol may have come of age, settled down not far from his matriarchal grandmother's hole and may have achieved some degree of hobbit like, respectablilty. Probably with his neighbors forming the opinion properly that Smeagol was always rather strange. However we will never know for sure. Pardon me if I'm stepping on anyone else's pre posted ideas! Not my intention. I'm new here and there is so much to read and catch up on. |
06-14-2006, 02:07 PM | #38 |
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so you're saying that none of the nine kings were good, but that all of them were bad and evil.
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06-14-2006, 02:12 PM | #39 |
Enting
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No. They were inherently more greedy than Bilbo or Frodo though. Somehow the evil of the rings found something to exploit in them.
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06-14-2006, 02:14 PM | #40 |
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but why are you just assuming that all the kings were greedy and such like?
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