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04-10-2003, 02:50 PM | #21 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Well, maybe a bit.
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04-10-2003, 02:54 PM | #22 | |
Elf Lord
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To this point, I'm to assume that Jackson was disrespectful to Tolkien's vision...plus "the author himself, his family and all the fans who have been reading and studying LotR over the past 40+ years" because he: 1) expanded Arwen's screen time and gave her a sword to hold; and 2) didn't get the characterizations exactly to everyone's satisfaction. If you Jackson naysayers want to be taken seriously and have a real discussion on the question of whether or not he captured Tolkien's vision (as opposed to a strict interpretation of the books), we need a lot more meat to chew on than what you've given us thus far. To be honest, I didn't think I'd prove my point this easily. |
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04-10-2003, 03:00 PM | #23 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Well, Tolkien said destroying the characters would be worse than destroying the plot, but I believe, but I guess you're just going to stick with Jackson and say "Screw the old geezer!"
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-10-2003, 03:05 PM | #24 | |
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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04-10-2003, 03:08 PM | #25 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Yes, a number of times I've heard Jackson say that he has taken Tolkien's story and actually improved upon it.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-10-2003, 03:30 PM | #26 | |
Elf Lord
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On the other hand, I am on record as saying Jackson improved on Tolkien's story. |
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04-10-2003, 03:46 PM | #27 |
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Then you enjoy the elimination of the characters of Gimli, Merry and Pippin? I can't see why.
As for themes, what about the fading of the Elves? If he must focus so much on Men, then he could at least show how much Elves are giving way to them as "race of glory". But no, he was doing a great job when suddenly a bunch of armoured, walking-in-unison idiots who call themselves Elves, not to mention Haldir, show up to save Helms Deep. Also the "expansion of Arwen's screen time" made Frodo look like a spineless wimp who couldn't resist the shard of Morgul-blade. Makes me think, "THIS is our Ringbearer?! He won't survive Moria, let alone Mordor!"
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04-10-2003, 03:56 PM | #28 | |
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It is pointless to ruin Faramir's noble character and to make Gimli out to be an idiot. That is not "capturing Tolkien's vision", your latest euphemism doesn't work either.
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04-10-2003, 07:13 PM | #29 |
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This is a question that could be argued from many different angles, and good arguments could be made either way.
Personally, I tend to side with the pro-movie side, although I love the books dearly too. I think FOTR EE was a sheer masterpiece. The changes such as Arwen did not bother me much, because Glorfindel is not really elaborated on in the book. (I know his history and importance, however). Bombadil annoys me because I strongly believe Tolkien put him in the book early on before he had a sure notion of his direction. It says as much in his letters. I feel that he is irrevelant to the story, but JRR left him in just to achieve some mysteriousness. All told, when I watch the movie, it is like the book memories springing from my head straight to the screen. For TTT, I am not quite as bullish for PJ. The movie was great, but I did not have that feeling of the book jumping straight to the screen. I definitely dislike the whole Gimli thing. I can think of no reason to do that. One of the few instances of out and out error in my opinion. I also dislike the Elves at Helms Deep, but I can live with it. Osgiliath was cool in my opinion because it added a little more depth to the movie in very quick fashion. I feel that unconsciously, the average viewer gets a feeling of the hugeness of Middle-Earth from that scene. It is my hope that the EE of TTT captures a little more feel from the book. As far as Tolkien's vision goes, I think the Elves were captured very well. The languages were excellent, the sense of fading emanated from Galadriel, and their immortal being was explored. Elrond was different, and I didn't like him at first, but he does a good job showing his disdain for the weakness of men. I agree that the movie was not centered around hobbits, but I do not think that it could have been done while still being completely effective and making money. Lets face it, that is a necessary part of all this. The movie had to be from the perspective of the people watching it. FOTR EE rates 10 out of 10 in capturing vision. TTT rates 7 out of 10 in capturing vision. Both movies view as one continuous picture rate 8 out of 10.
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04-10-2003, 07:19 PM | #30 | |
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04-10-2003, 07:20 PM | #31 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Sorry, I don't remember Elrond snubbing Men in the book...
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04-10-2003, 07:21 PM | #32 | |||
Elf Lord
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04-10-2003, 07:36 PM | #33 |
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Yes, thanks for reminding me. That scene with the Nazgul in Osgiliath ruined a chance for some real fear and fright to be displayed. It was very, very stupid to just hover there like an imbecile. That scene irks me, bad.
Probably my worst is when they hide under the Elven cape. When they show the view from inside the cape the guys foot is RIGHT THERE BESIDE THEM! Then it switches to the outside view and he is like 50 feet away. I don't get it...
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04-10-2003, 07:36 PM | #34 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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2. I would pretty well agree with this. I was fairly well satisfied with this aspect. Tho' I must say that some of my non-reading friends didn't understand, wondering why the Elves were leaving, and thinking they were just running away. 3. "Action hero", no. "More of an active character", yes. Frodo was poorly portrayed in my opinion. You think that Jackson's approach turned out to be more effective, but from what I have seen, you place Jackson over Tolkien (about 500 feet over). Personally, I think that this might have been better in the LotR books forum. But the thread-starter pretty well never goes to the LotR books forum. I wonder if this means something...
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-10-2003, 07:39 PM | #35 | |
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 04-10-2003 at 07:41 PM. |
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04-10-2003, 08:17 PM | #36 |
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What is happening here is the same thing that's happened on every other thread---you Purists just can't stop nitpicking long enough to savor the bigger picture. Capturing the heart and soul of Tolkien's work is much more than the individual issues of character portrayal or plot devices that have been shared here thus far.
One of Tolkien's themes is the importance of friendship and the power that comes from people of different races uniting behind a cause. Jackson solved a screenplay plot issue AND enhanced one of Tolkien's messages at the same time by bringing the elves to Helm's Deep. Was it in the book? Nope. But did it help illustrate a larger and more important point that Tolkien was making? ABSOLUTELY. A screenplay can't always capture the feel of its source book by playing it literal. Sometimes a screenwriter has to be creative in order to do justice to the author. This is but one of many BRILLIANT examples of this. |
04-10-2003, 08:22 PM | #37 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-10-2003, 08:24 PM | #38 | |
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
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04-10-2003, 08:28 PM | #39 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Wow...for some reason I suddenly felt pity...
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-10-2003, 08:38 PM | #40 |
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Thank you Gwaimir. Thou has hit yonder nail on the head.
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 04-10-2003 at 08:40 PM. |
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