02-11-2009, 03:04 PM | #21 |
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They were at Ferny’s house. Harry the Gatekeeper had seen all four hobbits, even though Ferny had not, and he had no doubt given the conspirators in the spy-ring a description of all four. In addition, Ferny and Harry had to recognize all the local inhabitants, and Merry was plainly not a Bree hobbit; indeed, Harry remarked that the Shire-hobbits and Bree-hobbits spoke with different accents. (Frodo noticed that Aragorn began speaking to him with a Bree accent, but as he relaxed his accent changed, probably to that of Rivendell or his Dúnedain kinsmen.)
Upon reflection, I think we have to agree that Merry was not mistaken for “just any old Bree hobbit.” And since hobbits are famously stay-at-home bodies, a strange hobbit at the last house – Ferny’s house –can only mean that one of the visitors of interest has wandered into the bad part of town. Gordis suggested that the Ringwraiths might have dropped him because keeping him would interfere with their “quiet visit” to the Inn. I think it is probably because Nob was too far away for them to silence before he raised an alarm. Keeping Merry risked creating confusion enough for the Ringbearer to escape. It isn’t as if Merry or Frodo were going to tell the local authorities they were being chased by scary guys dressed in black all the way from the Shire: they were trying to be secretive, too. That meant that all the Nazgûl had to do was be certain that they knew when the Ringbearer left and where he went: just keep him in sight until
-|- Separate question: Bill Ferny’s house is the last in the east end of Bree along the Road. It is clearly the “bad part of town.” Is this a reference, perhaps even an unconscious one, to the East End of London? (No offence intended to any real East-enders here, please!) -|- Added in an edit: this post cross-posted with Gordis's last post and is not intended as a response to that. Carry on, and I'll respond as I am able to obtain time to prepare an answer. Last edited by Alcuin : 02-11-2009 at 03:07 PM. |
02-11-2009, 03:20 PM | #22 | |
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02-11-2009, 03:37 PM | #23 |
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The one problem remaining, for me, anyway, is how th ghostly Nazgul, who wore robes "to conceal their nothingness," could drag an unconscious Hobbit anywhere. I can testify that dragging an unconscious anything is very, very hard, and Merry must have weighed at leas 70 lb.
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02-11-2009, 04:00 PM | #24 | |
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They had invisible but material bodies and weighted, I guess, exactly the same as living men of the same size and build. Remember the footprints they left in the dell by Weathertop? They could wield swords, knock down doors, ride horses and beasts etc quite fine, even when unclad. |
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02-11-2009, 04:16 PM | #25 | ||||||||||||
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(Okay, a response.)
Copyright, and editorial discretion. In Treason of Isengard, he says that his father wanted the reference to Harry in the Pony removed, but it was not. RC has a little more detail. (Very little.) Personally, I don’t see it as significant. I put the comment in there to alert ’Mooters who might be unaware of it; it is not otherwise germane to the discussion at hand. Quote:
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Where is your third Nazgûl at this point? Sneaking a swig from back of the beer-barrel? The Ringwraiths probably learned that four Shire-hobbits had passed through the West-gate soon after the event: in the draft in which Harry the Gatekeeper first appears, as soon as the hobbits pass, Harry tells a character named Ned to watch the gate and leaves. I think we have to assume he went to tell his new friends with the hiss that they were right: four hobbits did arrive. I also think that makes it a very safe bet that Harry cooperated by letting the Ringwraiths know that what they were looking for was in town. Quote:
Let’s please discuss Nazgûl and ósanwe-kenta in another thread. But you know me: I like to have as much text to build a case as possible. Quote:
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Imagine this from the point of view of the Nazgûl Merry followed. We’ll call him “Frick”.
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02-11-2009, 05:14 PM | #26 |
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02-11-2009, 05:27 PM | #27 | ||||||
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I don't see the contradiction in the last quoted sentence. The two nazgul make plans for attack on the inn, the third gone by that time. It really doesn't imply that the third had been already gone during the attempt to capture Merry. But likely he was outside with the horses. Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 02-11-2009 at 05:41 PM. |
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02-11-2009, 05:45 PM | #28 | ||||||
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Otherwise, I won’t disagree. (I’ll comment again on my perception of their competence toward the end of this post. That should prove a more convenient place for anyone to tear into me about my opinion.) Quote:
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(Gordis, you might check my quotes of your post: I did not use the edited version, but grabbed the unedited one. If I missed anything you changed or corrected, let me know, and I'll go back, too.) I’m going to post this, and then address the competence of the Nazgûl. I hope that doesn’t create a problem for anyone. |
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02-11-2009, 06:07 PM | #29 | ||
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02-11-2009, 06:31 PM | #30 |
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My question also. Alcuin, the nazgul came from Weathertop, not to the West gate by to the South Gate - likely found it closed and climbed over. That's why "there was no horse", as Merry noticed.
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02-11-2009, 06:40 PM | #31 | ||
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The nazgul was in a hurry to fetch his fellows outside the South gate, tell them the news and send a messenger to the WK. Merry became a nuisance instead of being a valuable prisoner. Quote:
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02-11-2009, 07:40 PM | #32 | |
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I think the three Nazgûl at Bree when Frodo and his friends arrived proceeded in a competent, workmanlike manner to address the situation they faced.
(This post has rather evolved from what I intended. We can continue to argue about the competence of the Nazgûl, if anyone wants.) Frodo was going to Rivendell. We know they had figured that from the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS. The Nazgûl were divided into two teams, one in the Shire (Khamûl and others) to root out the Ringbearer, and a second team sent to reconnoiter the East Road from Weathertop to the Shire. The Witch-king kept a central location to coordinate and direct the activity. Here is an aside, an observation you might find interesting but possibly inaccurate. I think we can infer that since Khamûl was in the Shire, they either believed the Ringbearer was still there; or else Khamûl directed that activity because he was already there, and it was the only thing to do. However, the implication of that observation is that the three Nazgûl riding back from Weathertop did not expect to find the Ringbearer. The Nazgûl arrived before Frodo and his friends. It was dusk when they arrived; it was dark when Frodo arrived. I found a website that allows us to compute the length of twilight for any city on any day. For London, England, on September 29 (for this year), Sunset: 17:43 Civil Twilight End: 18:16 Naut Twilight End: 18:55 Astro Twilight End: 19:34 “Dusk” is the end of civil twilight. The Nazgûl arrived around 6:15 PM. Frodo and his friends arrived at 7 o’clock or later, because it was dark and they could clearly see the stars. The Nazgûl could have arrived anywhere from just over a half-hour to nearly two hours before the hobbits, and they were in Bree first. They have time to get into town and conceal themselves. I suspect they were either at Ferny’s house, which was strategically located next to the South-gate, or just outside the South-gate. I think at least one was probably in town, because that meant there was no reason anyone to continually pass back and forth through the gate. It was Thursday 29 September, and Aragorn saw them visit Harry on Monday, three days before. (Here’s a Shire-calendar.) I think that well before Ferny and his friend the Isengarder returned from dinner and a show, the Ringwraiths knew there were four Shire-hobbits in town. That may be one reason why Tolkien wanted Harry the Gatekeeper removed from the Prancing Pony scene. (The note he left seems to indicate he thought Harry contributed to clutter. Harry certainly contributed to lots of discussion about when he’d entered the Inn before the publication of Treason of Isengard, so it’s well to bear in mind that we’re dealing with fiction, even very well-constructed fiction.) In any case, the Nazgûl would have gone to visit him. Here is a rough guide to the order and timing of events. I offer it not as a hard and fast list, but something we can use together to work out the times. 6:15 PM End of dusk. Nazgûl arrive in Bree 7:00 PM Hobbits arrive. Aragorn climbs over gate behind them 7:15 PM Butterbur takes them to sitting room 7:45 PM Frodo, Sam, and Pippin go to Commons room 8:45 PM Pippin gets "warm" and talks too much. Merry goes for walk 9:15 PM Frodo has "accident". Merry returns, sees Ringwraith outside Inn. Ferny leaves Inn. 9:30 PM Aragorn meets Hobbits in sitting room. Merry reaches Ferny's house. Ferny must be nearby. 9:45 PM Butterbur shows up with Gandalf's letter. Nob sees people lifting Merry. 10:00 PM Merry bursts into the room with Nob 10:15 PM Strider and Nob fix the hobbits' beds to look occupied. He barricades them in the sitting room Personally, I think Strider did not return to barricade the door until about 11, but we can work that out as the thread continues, I hope. I think it is reasonable to believe that the Nazgûl knew about the four Shire-hobbits before 7:45. If this rough guide is correct, and Merry found the Nazgûl across the road (street) from the Inn about the same time Frodo had his accident, then the Nazgûl might account for what Frodo sensed: Quote:
So far, so good for the Nazgûl. Frodo has revealed himself as the Ringbearer. When did the third Nazgûl leave for Andrath? I argue he left before 8 o’clock, as soon as the Ringwraiths knew they probably had their quarry. Here are some obvious questions to ask about the rough time-line.
Nob also has to leave the Inn and walk to the South-gate, and Ferny has to get home. Merry doesn’t mention meeting anybody on the street, so he doesn’t seem to have seen Ferny or the Isengarder. Did they leave before he arrived back at the Inn after his first walk to find the Black Rider across the street? An alternate explanation for why the Ringwraith was outside the Inn could be that the Ring had already revealed its Bearer, and the Ringwraith was “feeling” for it across the street. Here I’ll stop here and let others comment. -|-Added later This table of the rough Bree time-line may be a little easier to read. The table is an image (embedding HTML code into the vbCode that runs the posts is a security hazard), but if you click on this image, you can get to the webpage behind it, if you want. Hope this is helpful. Now, can we all work out the problems in this time-line together? Last edited by Alcuin : 02-11-2009 at 10:48 PM. |
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02-12-2009, 09:47 AM | #33 |
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I'm appearing more and more dense with every post, I'm afraid, but where is it said that the Nazgul arrived at dusk again? Was it in the text or in Tolkien's working notes posted earlier in the thread? I apologize for not going back and re-reading the thread to find it. Thanks.
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02-12-2009, 12:21 PM | #34 |
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Edit.
Last edited by Galin : 03-27-2009 at 10:58 PM. |
02-12-2009, 01:34 PM | #35 |
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Thanks for the new table, Alcuin!
Last edited by Gordis : 03-28-2009 at 03:28 AM. |
02-12-2009, 01:36 PM | #36 | |
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As for when Harry the Gatekeeper left the Inn, and whether CJRT was correct in having him removed from the Inn and thus from the text, my only observation is that I am old enough to recall the days when my friends and I discussed when he had entered, making various guesses and theories none of which in the end hold any water. While I see no harm in removing Harry from the scene in the Inn, I see no harm in leaving him, either. Harry is in fact an unnecessary character in the Prancing Pony, but he does contribute as the gatekeeper, demonstrating that the Nazgûl have already been to Bree and suborned some of the locals to help them. Bill Ferny was almost certainly Saruman’s agent in Bree before the arrival of the Black Riders, and the Isengarder was Saruman’s courier: both turned coats for the Nazgûl. In addition, we should note that the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS reveals another important off-stage activity. Aragorn has been hanging around Bree for days, too: we know that from his comments to Frodo about the Black Riders visiting Harry three days before. He had evidently made the same calculation as the Nazgûl about Frodo’s movements, but with the added information he received from Gildor about their meeting in the Woody End, so instead of being south or east of Bree, Aragorn is watching the Road west of town, and fortuitously sees the hobbits ride out of the Barrow Downs with Bombadil. But he has also discovered the Lord of the Nazgûl’s bivouac in Andrath, and anticipating that Black Riders will use the Greenway, he has ordered Rangers to ambuscade the route. When one of the Ringwraiths sets out for Andrath to tell his leader that the Ringbearer has finally been located again, he is unable to deliver the message in a timely fashion because he is ambushed. This sets the stage for the Witch-king’s wild night-ride through Bree, and it helps explain why Frodo and his companions were not hunted immediately, so that Aragorn was able to lose the pursuit north of the Road. Aragorn knew considerably more about the movements and whereabouts of the Nazgûl than the hobbits – or we the readers – initially guessed, and he took measures to set them off-balance and disturb their plans. An updated version of the time-line. Click on it to copy and paste from an underlying webpage. I would really like to work out the best times with everyone. Last edited by Alcuin : 02-12-2009 at 01:39 PM. |
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02-12-2009, 01:37 PM | #37 | ||
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Last edited by Gordis : 02-12-2009 at 01:59 PM. |
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02-12-2009, 03:29 PM | #38 | |
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Friends, the timing of events in the chapters “Sign of the Prancing Pony” and “Strider” is very important. If the time-line I’ve laid out is basically correct, and our interpretation of where Merry first saw the Black Rider in Bree is correct, then
Merry saw a Black Rider standing in the Road across from the Prancing Pony at the same time Frodo found the Ring had somehow slipped onto his finger.I think the Nazgûl was in communication with the One Ring, and that is how the “accident” happened. Remember, Tolkien wrote that Frodo Quote:
When I described this to my son, he said it sounded like the Ringwraith was pinging the One Ring. ringwraith>ping onering Last edited by Alcuin : 02-12-2009 at 05:02 PM. |
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02-12-2009, 03:32 PM | #39 |
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I will take 'competence,' here, to mean "the quality of being competent; adequacy; possession of required skill, knowledge, qualification, or capacity". I the Ringwraiths had been competent to take the Ring from Frodo, they would have done so. If it is argued that they were competent, then one must observe that they made a frightful hash of it, presumable because all their initiative had been drained form them "had no will left in the matter," as said under another connection.
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02-12-2009, 03:45 PM | #40 |
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edit.
Last edited by Galin : 03-28-2009 at 06:48 PM. |
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