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08-28-2004, 08:32 PM | #21 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2004, 08:45 PM | #22 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
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Is this "The Anal Retentive Debate"?
Rian....I've noticed (over the years ) that you have a "thing" about being "right" and getting the last word. (Just my opinion, I'm sure you won't agree. Sorry now for offending you...really! ) I also think you get hung up on "how" people say things sometimes, like there are some kind of rules or something. I see the forum as a place where people just try to communicate with each other, each in their own way, sort of with a fairly casual, take it or leave it attitude.... These tag team, tit for tat death matches are strangly funny sometimes, but really, they suck. Obviously, I don't care for *debating* all that much, but I really do like to communicate with people. I think this back and forth attempt to "score" points for "our" side merely draws us further apart and is not all that healthy.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 08-28-2004 at 09:40 PM. |
08-28-2004, 09:37 PM | #23 | |||||
Quasi Evil
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But remember now before we start getting into the point by point minutia of genetics that genetics needs to be looked at from the widest view. What is the usual behavior pattern. If one thing is favored over a number of other things then genetically we can assume that THAT thing is the way to go in a particular environment. Does that mean that that’s ALL you are going to see? Of course not. Variation is by definition built into the system. But for the few that die off many more survive and things continue as they were designed to. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2004, 09:40 PM | #24 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2004, 09:45 PM | #25 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
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"Insidious, Lief and Rian debate all things great and small"
That topic really encourages all other members to come and join the debate. I don't even know what you guys are debating about! It seems to be one big mess going back and forth between the three of you - with a post or two by Lizra. You could say that this whole thread is off topic since it doesnt even seem to have one! Since it is just the three of you, you really need a thread? Email, chat room, pms.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
08-28-2004, 09:45 PM | #26 | |||
Elf Lord
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Just briefly about getting the last word: You should have seen Insidious Rex and myself going at this predestination discussion some time ago in the Silmarillion thread. In fact, I think you may have seen some of it. Neither of us could ever give the last word. We went on and on and on and on and on. Quite exhausting in the end. We were both glad when I ended up collapsing with fatigue . My only point in saying this is that if R*an does it, she's not the only one. Some of us debaters are just crazy . . .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-28-2004, 10:07 PM | #27 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Gosh, I'm very excited to respond to your recent two posts, Insidious . Very fun. However, have to stop for supper, then have a phone call, then post on Atharon . . . should be back in a few hours. Maybe sooner. Hopefully .
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Go ahead and bring in more debaters, if they're interested in coming . It makes sense to me to have a thread that's fluid in topics. It's so hard to keep a thread going on topic anyhow, when it's a debate. Particularly a religious debate. Conversations always run everywhere. Here we won't be so limited. The thread can be archived instantly after its time is over. It's all right, isn't it?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-28-2004, 10:52 PM | #28 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-28-2004, 10:59 PM | #29 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The two topics of discussion here, as far as I can tell are : can a person be blamed for their actions if their actions are controlled by their genes and environment, and how shall we speak, in terms of trying to not hurt other people. (note - I didn't say who said what) Other participants in the discussion are free to offer what they think are the thread topics here
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-28-2004, 11:10 PM | #30 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2004, 11:20 PM | #31 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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I read the threads because I feel like it. This one's actually quite funny. I can't help making my little comments, after reading so many repetitive posts... Free will this, free will that....worldveiw, worldveiw, worldveiw.... I just get this URGE to say something to dry it all out a bit. You really don't have to respond to everything I say. Just ignore me if you want.
Besides, I'm Tolkiened out.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 08-28-2004 at 11:22 PM. |
08-29-2004, 12:51 AM | #32 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Seriously, I just wondered because you seemed really distressed about some things, but if ya wanna read it, ya wanna read it! Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-29-2004, 12:53 AM | #33 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Shall we just drop it and move on to other things?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-29-2004, 02:02 AM | #34 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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When scientists were discovering the truths of the solar system, they watched the stars through telescopes and plotted their paths. There were always a few random stars that went against current theory. A lot of people just wanted to ignore those. But when scientists really looked closely at those random stars, they found that what they had previously ignored actually revealed massive new truths about the physical laws of the universe. It was an amazing discovery for them. The examples here that differ from a "law of selfishness from genes" I think are far more numerous and powerful an evidence for the soul then the random stars were an evidence for a different model of the solar system. Quote:
Indeed, I would ask you how much of what goes on in the mind, in your opinion, connects with the will of genes. Because often you say that genes in order to continue would want things in a certain way. But the reasoning you say the genes have has absolutely no bearing upon what the person's thinking at the time he does the action. For example, if he saves the life of a friend at risk of his own. You said in the other thread where we were discussing this that it would be partly because the friend's in his group and the group all has to protect itself even at the expense of one member. Also the friend might feel an obligation to him. Yet these self centered reasons have absolutely no connection to what's going on in the person's mind when he tries to save his friend's life. He doesn't think, "that person would be useful to me in the future and I owe this to the group." He is filled with fear because of his love for his friend. So how do the thoughts of the mind connect with the will of the genes (forgive me if I phrased that wrong)? One thing I would like to thank you for briefly, Insidious Rex, is how you make a point by far most of the time of answering every part of our posts. You don't skip issues at all, and the fact that you devote that kind of time to this is very pleasant.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-29-2004, 02:07 AM | #35 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Ignorance is frequently present in people that have sex before marriage. Abstinence-only programs actually have reduced the number of people having sex before marriage by a large number. That program reaches out to people's intellects. Religion does too. So if this intellectual information (though I'm certainly not saying that's all it is) causes people to change behavior patterns, where's the will of genes involved? They seem to be bound by the intellectual information available to their hosts. Further, from the paragraph I said above, it seems that they are bound to the will of their hosts. Even if the conditions are perfect from sex, the spreading of genes, the will of a person involved is against the action. My main question is about the intellectual reasoning though. Information seems to be a key in whether or not the person will have sex or not. If it's all biological and about the genes' will, the information shouldn't be important. Quote:
"but the ideal mating situation for humans SEEMS to be one primary mate and one or more secondary mates if the male can get away with it." This depends massively upon the religious views and social interests of the male, as well. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-29-2004, 02:45 AM | #36 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-29-2004, 12:00 PM | #37 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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guess i'll stay out of this one
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
08-29-2004, 12:15 PM | #38 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
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Moving on to other things.......
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
08-29-2004, 12:58 PM | #39 | |
Elf Lord
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Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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If you want to bring up something else, Lizra, go for it!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-29-2004, 01:04 PM | #40 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Meanwhile, I think that the point you made is flawed whether the abortions are merely in the development stages or not. Your argument is the same as Shakespeare's Richard III, when he convinces Elizabeth to allow him to marry her daughter. He'd murdered Elizabeth's sons already. Then he argued to her, "the past is in the past and cannot be amended. We need to look to the future. In this future I will bless you and your own even more then I have deprived from them." It's a call the ignores justice, that ignores clear wrongdoing in an attempt to make the future a better place.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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