12-09-2006, 03:06 AM | #21 | |
Elven Warrior
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Is it okay to interrupt and post something about homosexual marriage on this thread?
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Latest polls show support at 58%, a 3% gain since the legislation was first introduced, while opposition has dropped by the same amount, to 36%. I suppose we can expect total societal breakdown in the imminent future. |
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12-09-2006, 03:25 AM | #22 | |
Elven Warrior
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IR, while you are right on the subject of the origin of morals, one thing that has to be emphasised is that right and wrong were originally only applied within the social group; it was wrong to kill your neighbor rape his daughter because that was threatening the unity (and hence survivability) of the group.
Killing outsiders and stealing their women was quite acceptable, and even morally right. Quote:
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12-09-2006, 05:38 AM | #23 | |||
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Harper isn't stupid. He knows he can't win this issue and he fulfilled the election promise. I think he doesn't want to weaken his minority government by pursuing the issue when it is not a priority for many Canadians.
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12-09-2006, 08:22 AM | #24 |
Elven Warrior
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And of course, congratulations to Mary Cheney on her pregnancy. Unfortunately, as a highly-paid Washington lobbyist, she has to live in Virginia, which denies all rights to gay partners, so her companion of fifteen years will have zero rights with regard to their child.
Oh well, after the Democratic victory in 2008 has reduced her value as a lobbyist, she can move to a more civilised jurisdiction. Wonder if the announcement was held until after the November elections? After all, there's a Cheney family tradition of conveniently timed pregnancies. |
12-09-2006, 03:14 PM | #25 | ||||
Elf Lord
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GreyMouser, you're taking this passage out of context, and then making inaccurate generalizations off of the results.
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Israel destroyed the Midianites after the Midianites attacked them first. That is why, in the beginning of the chapter you cite (a part of it that you did not place in your quotation), the Lord says, "take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites." Chapter 22:4-7 describes the Moabites and Midianites allying together against Israel. Quote:
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The Midianites and Moabites attacked Israel first, in this way, and Israel engaged in a just retaliatory strike. The Midianite women who had engaged in sexual intercourse had been involved in the fertility rights of Baal of Peor, and this justified destroying them. According to Biblical principles, the man is the head of a household and the head of his wife. The boys of Midien had been brought up with a strongly immoral background and hence immoral tendencies and a dark heritage. Also, there are frequently curses that settle upon people and pass from father to son. As the boys would have been heads of their households, they would have led others to sin. The boys, therefore, had to be killed to. Women are not the head of the household, and hence wouldn't be as likely to have the power to lead other people to sin, but rather would be much more likely to be swayed toward the way of the Lord. The men would lead the family and so lead the wives, so allowing those who had not been corrupted by the rites of Baal of Peor to survive was possible. When the Lord allowed the Israelite men to take these women for themselves, this also was not rape. Rather, it was a kindness to these women, for if the men had left them to fend for themselves with all their men and boys dead, they would have starved. The men were the hunter/gatherers, the providers for and protectors of their women. With them gone, these young women could not have survived on their own. It was a mercy for Israel to take the place of their men and admit them into their society. So the Lord's decision for each of these different groups was just, and Israel's war with the Midianites was also defensive. The Midianites and Moabites had made the first attack.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-10-2006, 10:10 AM | #26 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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"We just killed your father in war, then slaughtered your granny, mother, sisters and and your baby brother against the rocks; now out of the kindness of our heart we're going to enslave you because you don't have a family to take care of you." So, Leif, you would have bashed the old woman's head in, plunged the spear into the young mother's heart, and then smashed her baby's head against the rocks, secure in the knowledge that this was a righteous act and pleasing in the eyes of the Lord- more in sorrow than anger, I'm sure. I think I'll take my "relativist" morality, thanks. |
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12-10-2006, 02:42 PM | #27 |
Elf Lord
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*Post contents deleted by Lief.*
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-10-2006 at 04:48 PM. Reason: T'was a very long post, and wholly off-topic. I'm moving it to the Theology thread. |
12-10-2006, 04:44 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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By the way, I think we're really, really off-topic now. Would you respond to my post in the Theology thread?
This post is a repeat of what I said in my post 27, but oh well.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-10-2006 at 05:07 PM. |
12-11-2006, 01:43 AM | #29 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(what thread is this? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-11-2006 at 01:46 AM. |
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12-11-2006, 02:12 AM | #30 |
of the House of Fëanor
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GreyMouser, just wanna say you rock, and I love reading your posts, and I think everything you've posted here has stayed perfectly within topic and has had specific and direct relevancy to the posts you've been responding to; if people start crying about off-topicking, it's probably because they're getting nervous and panicky about losing their version of a grip on their assumed position of upper-handedness in the debate. Well, I say don't sweat it, and from a casual observor's POV you're doing more than great in this little debate here and I applaud you, sah! Very cool. Excellent stuff. o.K., sorry to interrupt, carry on then...
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12-11-2006, 02:32 AM | #31 |
Elf Lord
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*Wanders around in a circle, nervous, panicky and crying, tears and sweat streaming down his face.*
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-11-2006 at 02:38 AM. |
12-11-2006, 02:39 AM | #32 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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That post cracked me up Lief
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12-11-2006, 02:42 AM | #33 |
of the House of Fëanor
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And I can so picture that, too, I can totally see you like that; that was a funny mental image just now, Lief! You guys are killin' me, O.K.! silly geese - *pictures Lief like that, sees an exagerrated old film noir clip, so funny image! very cool..*
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12-11-2006, 03:06 AM | #34 |
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Lief is a bit scary when he's had too much sugar O.o
Okay, okay, enough fun times, kiddies. Back on topic with the lot of you. Now! Get back on topic right now! o(>.<)O |
12-11-2006, 03:23 AM | #35 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Quite right, quite right, indeed, sah! Shall do. Speaking of homosexuality and marriage, I wonder what this about Dick Cheney's daughter, I wonder how thing'sll pan out for her and her - wife? Wife by common-law marriage, if they've been together for fifteen years? This is the first I've heard about Mary Cheney being preggers; cool news but I'm sure more than a bit sweat-inducing for her ultra-conservative dad. Hmm. We'll see how Virginia state legislation proceeds concerinig legalising gay marriage... didn't the state of Virginia just elect a new - senator or House Rep or something who could have some sway concerning the gay marriage issue?
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12-11-2006, 02:49 PM | #36 | |
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They may have a democratic Senator now but I seriously doubt that will make a bit of difference as far as gay marriage goes. Virginia is still quite backwards in that regard.
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Fortunately in science we have many different ways of determining the veracity of things. And evolution can be shown to be true by many different means. And if you still insist on believing your eyes only then you CAN see fossils and determine quite a bit about evolution from them just to name one thing… You can also see DNA now that we have the proper amplification tools.
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12-11-2006, 05:37 PM | #37 | ||||||
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BTW, did you catch the "Wit-less" Edition of my reply to you? Quote:
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12-11-2006, 06:26 PM | #38 | ||||||
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I suppose we should move this to t'other thread if we want to talk about it more. Quote:
I don't know, GreyMouser; it's certainly a tough thing, but I think we all just have to go with what we sincerely think is right when it comes to making a vote on societal issues. And different societies will make different decisions on the marriage issues based on their beliefs about what is right and wrong.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-11-2006 at 06:27 PM. |
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12-11-2006, 06:53 PM | #39 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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PS -
1. IRex - I mean "seen" in the sense of "detected" - not necessarily eyeballing something. One can detect radar signals but not "see" them - they are in the present. 2. GreyMouser - I think a similar situation would be the school that my kids go to. I MUST pay taxes that help fund our public schools, yet my choice is to pay for a private school for my kids because I don't like a lot of things about the public schools. The public has chosen certain schools that they want their money to support, and that's THEIR right; and it's MY choice to choose to put my kids somewhere else, even though that denies me my government benefits in this area. If enough people feel differently, though, school vouchers will pass eventually. In the same way, the public has chosen that marriage should be defined in a certain way, and if Mary Cheney (or anyone else) wants to choose a partner outside of those definitions, they may, but they won't be "supported" by government benefits (like I'm not supported by government benefits for my kids' schools). If enough people feel differently, though, gay marriage (or any other redefinition of marriage) will pass eventually.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-11-2006 at 06:59 PM. |
12-11-2006, 07:38 PM | #40 | ||||
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