05-06-2006, 01:22 PM | #21 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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What do you expect of me, BB? To agree that the Ring was suicidal? No way!
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05-24-2006, 01:02 PM | #22 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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i know this is probally insignificant, but in Book 4 Ch 10, The Choices of Master Samwise, he puts on the Rings when he hears orc voices, and hasn't taken it off by the end of the chapter. Yet in Book 6 Ch 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, it says "Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again." inconsistancy or what.
Anyways, what do you think the Nazgul at the end of the chapter is doing because it seems a bit too early for the Which-kings death, and i don't think it could be for the wail of the Watchers because why would the tower need a nazgul nearby if they are all meant to be elsewere, and Sauron, i think at this point of time, hasn't heard of Frodo's capture yet?
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05-24-2006, 01:22 PM | #23 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Now that I think about it, the nazgul must have been flying TO Barad-Dur. He reported to Sauron and then was sent directly back to take command of the tower. Otherwise, too little time to find another nazgul in time to send scouts who nearly caught the hobbits later. |
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06-18-2006, 04:29 AM | #24 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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This is so annoying! The first few days, I was very disappointed because hardly anyone was interested in my summary, and only when I stopped checking, you all started discussing it!
I was most interested in this discussion of what the Ring was really upto. There seem to be a number of explanations... Gor says it realized Sam was intent on rescuing Frodo, and decided to help so he could get to Frodo who is more corrupted. This makes sense to me. First, he tried to seduce Sam, showing him the vision of those gardens, and him as the master of them, etc. That didn't work very well, so then, it would try to get back to Frodo, who it knew was easier to bend to its will... But, there are still unexplained instances of the Ring's behaviour. As BB points out somewhere, why didn't it chose some other vassal in the Mountains? It is mentioned, I think, that Gollum frequently attacked orcs who came to the Mountain, and killed them with the aid of the Ring. If, at the time when Isildur had the Ring, it was willing to have an orc, why should it care now, especially as its an orc vs. Gollum (who is curiously resistant, and won't get out of his cave, no matter what)? How easy it would be to psychologically warn an orc, who then kills Gollum, takes the Ring as his own, and once complete domination is achieved, the Ring leads him to Sauron? Surely, it knew, when no one else did, that Sauron was alive, and could tell where he was? A possibility is that, perhaps as the years passed, and the Ring felt itself to be more of a seperate entity, maybe it began to like being the Master over someone else (remember it had all Sauron's evil) and liked less being the one who was mastered by Sauron. But, that explanation leads to too many new questions in my mind...
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06-18-2006, 07:05 PM | #25 | |
Elven Warrior
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While the idea that the Ring purposely aided Sam by causing the Orcs’ in the tower to fight and frightening off the single Orc in the hallway is very interesting, I can’t agree with it. In my opinion, the Ring and Sauron were two parts of the same being, as Butterbeer said earlier. Unless it was mastered by another, it would be completely loyal to Sauron.
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If the Ring could force Orcs to fight each other to aid it’s holder or aid it’s recovery by Sauron, then why didn’t it do so in Moria? By far the most likely scenario during the battle there was the Ring being taken by the Balrog. It just didn’t happen to work out that way, by some miracle. Which brings us back to the Orcs destroying each other in the tower. This is just so...ridiculous, that to me, the only logical answer is intervention by Eru. |
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06-18-2006, 11:59 PM | #26 | ||
Elf Lord
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06-19-2006, 06:09 PM | #27 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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I don’t think that numbers 1 or 2 apply to Sam in this situation and it is actually questionable whether or not 3 does. Quote:
Last edited by CAB : 06-20-2006 at 03:41 AM. |
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06-20-2006, 03:25 AM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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Wow. It seems like we've agreed that there is a big massive plot hole in LOTR
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06-20-2006, 11:47 AM | #29 | |
Elven Warrior
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06-20-2006, 12:47 PM | #30 |
Elf Lord
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Then one has to wonder how the **** they got thousands of 'em to march across continents instead of going off pillaging wherever.
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06-20-2006, 01:07 PM | #31 | |
Elven Warrior
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I would say it's Sauron's power; according to the Field of Cormallen, RotK:
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06-20-2006, 05:52 PM | #32 | |
Elven Warrior
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99% (or very close to it) of the Orcs in the tower were killed. When groups of Orcs battle each other how often do you think there is this kind of casualty rate? Also remember that these are groups of Orcs in Mordor and with Nazgul nearby. They aren’t very far away from some (no doubt) very severe punishment for this kind of behavior. Yes, the tracker and soldier you mentioned were also in Mordor, but they were just two and were far away from any leaders. I think there had to be more to this than just Orcs being Orcs. Last edited by CAB : 06-20-2006 at 08:16 PM. |
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06-21-2006, 05:39 AM | #33 |
Elf Lord
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CAB said it.
Also, good quote Landroval. This idea of Sauron's will inhabiting them in some way is something that we often forget in discussing other stuff. |
06-21-2006, 06:15 AM | #34 | |
Elven Warrior
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06-21-2006, 07:47 AM | #35 |
Elf Lord
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Orcs will be Orcs!
(or as Big C said somewhere recently ... Did you know that all orcs are "cosmetically unique"? ) cosmetically unique dudes will be cosmetically unique! ...................................... Question: If we assume that the ring and Sauron are a duality, and that we can only assume that sauron thinks he can control the ring, or that he beleives the ring is trying to get back to a "master": and we can only assume this on the basis that Gandalf is at best summising this ... even Tolkein himself states in the much quoted letter 246 ...that sauron has to make the ring obey him ...thus implying against its own will ... and that after being away from Sauron's weakened fea and had a nice holiday and rest by the river etc .... if we assume it IS a duality: which is the stronger? Sauron or the ring? |
06-21-2006, 08:42 AM | #36 | |
Elven Warrior
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06-21-2006, 12:45 PM | #37 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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A post where I agree :
I agree with CAB here: Quote:
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06-21-2006, 06:51 PM | #38 | |
Elven Warrior
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Just to throw out a little conspiracy theory here (not to be taken too seriously); maybe the Nazgul instigated the fight in the tower. It has been argued before that they wanted the Ring to be destroyed. The Witch King had just recently sensed the Ring outside Minas Morgul. It would seem that the Orcs that started the fight were under the Witch King’s command. A Nazgul very conveniently showed up just after Sam and Frodo escaped from the tower (not before, when the alarm was first raised), and seems to have (again conveniently) not noticed the Ring. |
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06-21-2006, 11:14 PM | #39 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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There, right there, CAB, is a brilliant idea for an rpg. LotR: the Inside Story, or something like that!
hmmm, it is true that Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, but what kind of power? If the Ring has less willpower than Sauron, then it will, still, be undoubtedly weaker...
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"I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?" Death thought about it. "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." -Terry Pratchett, Sourcery Join the Harry Potter discussion, click here Last edited by Serenoli : 06-21-2006 at 11:26 PM. |
06-22-2006, 02:03 AM | #40 | |||
Elven Warrior
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"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring" but it doesn't imply that the greater power has been transferred. Quote:
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Last edited by Landroval : 06-22-2006 at 02:06 AM. |
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