05-21-2006, 11:48 AM | #21 | ||
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I think people tend to give to much credit to the UT quote "had no will of their own". I think it applies only to the very specific situation, their being UNABLE TO CLAIM THE RING for themselves. That is all. From the same chapter in UT it is evident that it was the WK who directed the Search for the Ring in the Vales, decided where to go, and when to return. And the following passage in LOTR leaves no doubts that it was the WK, not Sauron who devised and directed the assault on Minas Tirith: Quote:
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05-22-2006, 01:07 PM | #22 | |
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"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force." |
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05-22-2006, 05:02 PM | #23 |
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Again, Landroval, this quote applies to a specific situation, when (and IF) Galadriel or Elrond CLAIMED THE ONE RING.
Then and only then they will have "absolutely subservient generals". I have no doubt, that when Sauron had the One, and the Nazgul wore their Rings ( back in the Second Age) they were subservient. But in the Third Age Sauron had no Ring. It seems the interaction between the wielder of the Nine Rings (Sauron) and the wraiths that formerly had these rings, but had them no more, was different. What it was like exactly we are not told, save that the wraiths would bring the One to Sauron if they find it and that he had primary control over their wills. Anyway, the quote you gave in your last post doesn't apply to their situation in the Third Age. |
05-22-2006, 05:04 PM | #24 | ||
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05-22-2006, 05:33 PM | #25 | ||
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I agree with you, CAB.
Sauron did have difficulty attending to many things at once. He couldn't even watch his borders effectively: Quote:
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05-22-2006, 05:51 PM | #26 | |
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05-22-2006, 06:02 PM | #27 | |
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Perhaps he knew their thoughts at all times, at least when they were thinking something bad. On the other hand, running the thoughts of 9 different people through your head at all times might drive even a Maia mad. The only evidence is that when Sauron put on the One and intoned the Ring-Spell, all those wearing the other rings heard him immediately, though he didn't mean to broadcast. Also Galadriel says that if Sauron regained the One, all the thoughts of the Wielders of the Three will be laid bare to him, or something like that. |
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05-22-2006, 06:41 PM | #28 | ||
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05-22-2006, 07:08 PM | #29 |
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It sounds as if Sauron could do several things with the minds and wills of those who wore the Rings of Power while he was in possession of the One Ring. He knew whatever they knew – not automatically, perhaps, or as if their knowledge were his knowledge, but maybe in the sense of being able to query them: they could hide nothing, they would immediately reveal whatever they hoped to keep hidden. They would be in communication with him and his powerful, evil will through their rings.
This brings up the second matter, Sauron’s control of the will of those who wore the Rings of Power. He easily dominated the nine Men to whom he gave Rings of Power: they succumbed quickly if they were basically evil and later if they were basically good; but in the way the Eldar and the Maiar experienced time, it was quick. In the end, all nine Men were evil because they were polluted with the mind and will of Sauron, which overwhelmed their own individual wills. The Nine Ringwraiths were not automatons in any way, in my view. But over time, I think each was less and less in possession of his wants and desires, and more and more driven by the wants and desires of Sauron. It does not seem that their personalities were entirely submerged into Sauron’s, but dominated by Sauron’s. They maintained idiosyncrasies and their own personal abilities, magnified and distorted as they might have been by the Rings. But they were not able to do things against Sauron’s goals, they were unable to resist him any longer, and they would follow his instructions to the best of their abilities as they understood what goal he had in mind. For instance, if Sauron told him to take a military objective, a Nazgûl would develop his own plan of attack, gather resources to accomplish it, and change his plans as the situation dictated. But everything would be aimed at accomplishing the goal Sauron had set forth for him. The Dwarves who bore the Seven Rings were more resistant to these effects. Whether Sauron could read their thoughts and the secrets of their hearts I cannot say; but Tolkien says that he could not dominate their wills in the way that he did Mortals. The Rings inflamed their greed and jealousy, however, and this no doubt worked to his advantage by weakening the Dwarvish kingdoms and their social fabric. (After all, who wants to live under the rule of a greedy, jealous, megalomaniac and autocratic king who will start a war, perhaps with other Dwarves, for no good reason, for instance? Or who takes from his people a greater and greater share of the wealth of the kingdom? Insofar as those things happened, they would be destructive to the Dwarvish city-states and to the societies that built them.) A final note. In “The Hunt for the Ring,” several readers have noticed (in other forums) that the Ringwraiths did not realize that Sauron wanted them to search the west side of the Misty Mountains. I must point out that Sauron was not in possession of the One Ring, and it is likely that the Nine were not wearing their Rings, either, if Sauron “held them” in his own physical possession. They were clearly not in mental communication with him in those conditions, or likely with one another, except by normal means: speaking, writing, and so forth. |
05-22-2006, 07:41 PM | #30 |
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I agree with most of what you are saying Alcuin, but not all. I believe that the Nazgul retained more of their personal desires than what you seem to be saying. You might consider looking at Olmer’s thread on this subject. It is a little “uncanon-ish” (alright, a lot uncanon-ish), but there are some very good points made. In defense of the Ringwraith
If the Nazgul kept any of their former personalities, then they probably kept their desire for free choice / self-rule. This is probably a pretty basic want for almost any person, but even more so for those who are (or were) great leaders. Again, there is the fact that Sauron threatened the Nazgul during the hunt for the Ring. Why threaten those who are following your will to the best of their abilities? Maybe Sauron wasn’t the most reasonable being, but this seems like a pointless gesture for someone with his intelligence to make. |
05-22-2006, 09:59 PM | #31 | |
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Modern Western society generally condemns and punishes such people; and even centuries ago, it was considered less than desirable behavior. Sounds like it might be appropriate for Sauron. |
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05-23-2006, 02:16 PM | #32 | |||
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05-23-2006, 02:29 PM | #33 | |||
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Edit: by the way, Landroval, how do you interpret "absolutely subservient" and more importantly "had no will of their own"? Last edited by Gordis : 05-23-2006 at 02:32 PM. |
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05-23-2006, 02:57 PM | #34 | |
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"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron"
Though I am not a native speaker, I would say this clearly reffers to "nowadays" Sauron. Quote:
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05-23-2006, 04:36 PM | #35 |
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I see. You will believe such things ONLY if you find a letter where Tolkien said so himself, it seems.
But relying on the Letters so much, makes you disregard the facts that we can obtain from the published LOTR text, which Tolkien himself, in later writings tried to change as little as possible, only finding various "interpretations" of the things already there. The facts in the Hunt for the Ring in LOTR and UT couldn't be explained if we take some statements (like utterly subservient) at face value. It doesn't mean that Tolkien himself necessarily thought of the same explanation or of another possible explanation before us. Though, who knows... more letters may be found one day. |
05-23-2006, 06:33 PM | #36 | ||
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05-24-2006, 10:06 AM | #37 |
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Good point, CAB.
Also, note that in this situation at Sammath Naur, both Frodo with the One and Sauron with the Nine are intent on the nazgul, trying to gain control. So the third possible factor: their own free will is not even considered. |
05-24-2006, 03:22 PM | #38 | ||
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What the "primary control" means, at minimum, is that whenever Sauron wanted, he could dictate to the nazguls; the "absolute subserviency" means that the nazgul would not do anything they know is counter to Sauron's will, regardless whether Sauron attempts to control them or not at that particular moment. This is nitpicking; as I stated, what I wanted to counter was Gordis' idea that the nazguls were fooling around and that Sauron stopped trusting them. There is no such direct statement (quite the contrary) and the evidences invoked are circumstancial at best, do not imply them, and have much better explanations. |
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05-24-2006, 04:16 PM | #39 | |
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Last edited by Gordis : 05-25-2006 at 04:25 AM. |
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05-24-2006, 05:58 PM | #40 | |||||
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