11-23-2004, 03:42 AM | #21 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
|
11-23-2004, 11:20 AM | #22 | |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
It's Gwindor, BTW. And he says, "But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin." To which Turin responds, "That I do believe." Hm... evidence for my theory. Thank you. Anyway... the story is not even nearly over by the time Turin technically finds out about the curse. And I never said that Turin wasn't unlucky, stupid, or prideful... I think it all adds up, and am not willing to totally discount the curse.
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 11-29-2004 at 06:25 PM. |
|
11-23-2004, 12:53 PM | #23 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
But he only says he believes that not that he knew that.
I doubt he picked up the Thangorodrim Gazette!
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
11-23-2004, 01:17 PM | #24 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
I would say what many people seem to have been pointing at: there is something in Turin's makeup (hubris, pride, whatever name you want to call it) that means he would or will not change course no matter who tells him to, up to and including the Valar. So Morgoth's "curse" can also be seen as simply knowing what Turin will do (because if you don't change course you are very predictable) and using that to make his life as horrible as possible.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
11-26-2004, 12:16 AM | #25 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 256
|
thats all well and good that both Melkor and Mandos are Ainur have heard the music and so can "curse" when they want to, and i hate to bring this into a Silmarillion forum, but what about the Curse of Isildur?? He is a mortal man and yet he curses an entire kingdom!! Surely he has never heard the music. Plus even if he had, the curse wasn't a foreknowledge, it was more like a spell, so that they would never die.
|
11-29-2004, 06:25 PM | #26 | ||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
So I'm going to run with it for a while until someone really shoots me down, or I convince myself. Which ever comes first. I'm not trying to say that the Curse was a force in and of itself (not yet, at least ) I think, however, that it became a force. If the curse had no effect whatsoever, what would have been the point of mentioning it? I'm saying that psychologically, if nothing else, the Curse played a role. btw, how could Turin's marriage to Nienor have been predicted? Quote:
Anyway, TD, belief can be as important, and as strong, as knowledge. IMO, if Turin believed that Morgoth cursed him, and wandered around living his life believing he was cursed and expecting nothing good to come of anything he did, than in effect he would be cursed. Does this make any sense at all?
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
||
11-30-2004, 03:22 AM | #27 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
It makes sense. Hurin wasn't cursed before he was captured by Morgoth and Morgoth only cursed him while Hurin was captive and it's probable that Turin had alread been the victim of 'bad luck'!
Does that make sense!
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
11-30-2004, 07:48 AM | #28 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 221
|
Turin, by natural inclination, is quiet and reserved, even in childhood, although he possesses unusual sensitivity and pity for someone his age. His personality takes a turn for the worst only after he is forced to depart from his home and seek Thingol in Doriath. His "woes" start as soon as he is separated from Morwen:. a child who, whithin a short period, is deprived of mother and father.
Morgoth systematically aimed to destroy the remnants of Hurin's family, including the rout of the House of Hador. His evil pursues the whole family to their detriment; including the choices that befall them and their own deeds that play a part in their individual downfalls. IMHO, Morgoth identified that Hurin's taunts and defying was an aspect of the Pride that was inherent in the characteristics of the House of Hador. Therefore, he uses this Pride as the basis for which his curse would work. Hence, Morwen, through her pride refuses to leave her homestead. Nienor disobeys Morwen's order to stay back in Doriath when she wishes to follow her to Nargothrond, and Turin... well we all know what happened to him Turin early on recognises that there is some sort of shadow that inflicts him and he is beset with bad luck, as well as bad judgement. I believe this is the curse that works its effects. A physical embodiment of the curse is Glaurung. We are told that Morgoth emparts some of his own "spirit" into the Worm so that he sees through his eyes. Turin's own internal strifes: bearing the loss of his parents, his Kingdom/people etc; his conflicting moods; sometimes wise beyond his years; possessing both humility (he doesn't really understand how strong and a great warrior he is) and pity, contrasts starkly with: rage; sadness and depression; ill luck; and Pride. I believe that although Turin had some of the latter characteristics from the outset, Morgoth exploits these weaknesses as much as possible through cursing the choices that Hurin's family make, and which ultimately decides their fates.
__________________
Durin the Sleepless! |
11-30-2004, 01:46 PM | #29 | |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Some sense, TD. Yes.
And very nice, Durin1. One question: Quote:
Another, somewhat rhetorical question: How can someone have so much bad luck...! The sheer quantity of it, and I can't put all of it down to his pride! It kind of makes the true Curse idea more supportable...
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|
11-30-2004, 04:23 PM | #30 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
||
11-30-2004, 04:27 PM | #31 |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Sorry, TD, that was directed at Durin1.
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
11-30-2004, 04:29 PM | #32 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Oh well. My statements still stand.
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
11-30-2004, 04:33 PM | #33 | |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Sure thing.
Quote:
...Unless I can figure out some way to weave it into my harebrained theory...
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|
11-30-2004, 04:37 PM | #34 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
We can discuss it here.
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
11-30-2004, 04:58 PM | #35 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
I'm not so sure that the 'curse' was really a curse in the traditional sense. Or rather, it was, but not in the way that you tend to think of a curse inflicting someone with an evil fate.
The way I see it, what it boils down to is the fact that Morgoth had dissimated most of his power in minions and throughout Middle Earth itself. Think about it. That's a lot of power in a lot of different places. That gives him a lot of leverage if he wants to, say, influence Turin and Nienor down the path to suicide. Take note of the fact that Morgoth is able to show Hurin what's happening with his kids - if he has the ability to get live footage of Turin's tragedy, is it really that much of a stretch to imagine that he might be orchastrating it? After all, the One Ring shows an ability to tempt otherwise good people down the path to ruin, and since Middle Earth is, as Tolkien called it, 'Morgoth's Ring', it would certainly seem likely that he would possess the ability to tempt Turin to those acts which led to his destruction.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-30-2004, 05:12 PM | #36 | ||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
Though your next arguments could be used to support that it could have been a "true" curse also. I think that's a possibility that should not be discounted entirely. Quote:
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
||
12-01-2004, 05:50 AM | #37 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 221
|
Quote:
I definitely believe that a curse did exist. When replying to the taunts of Hurin, Morgoth alludes to the fact that he (Hurin) should not underestimate the power that Morgoth has. Hence the curse that he inflicts. BTW, curses were quite common, Dwarves are especially proficient in giving them!! Tolkien was deeply moved by the story of Turin. He spent more time on developing the Narn i Hin Hurin than on any other work, including Beren and Luthien. He created a uniques destiny for Turin to: "redress the wrongs inflicted on his House". In fact, he gains so much prominance that he deals Melkor his death-blow during the Last Battle, standing on one side of Tulkas. This shows to me that Turin can't have been all that bad and he is unique in that he bears the brunt of Morgoth's malice more than any other character.
__________________
Durin the Sleepless! |
|
12-01-2004, 01:26 PM | #38 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
It was his pride that was his biggest let down tho.
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
12-05-2004, 12:47 AM | #39 | |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
Yes, he does bear more of Morgoth's malice, but is this necessarily because Morgoth hated him more than anyone else? Could it have been rather that Morgoth could effect him more than he could effect others?
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|
12-05-2004, 04:37 PM | #40 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
I wouldn't say he bore Morgoth's malice more than anyone. I'd say Hurin and his kin did. I'd say he bore Glaurungs hate more than anyone, but not Morgoth's.
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |